evile: (deadmoon)
 it's not exact to my experience, of course, but evokes similar feels. (and this is reason #200074 why I did not have or want kids. And, yes, people can love you and still be damaged and harmful and toxic as fuck.  "just because someone doesn't love you the way you want/ need to be loved doesn't mean they aren't loving you the best they can/ the only way they know how,"....and it fucking sucks.  For everyone.

======================

Your Mother did not heal 
her childhood wounds
 
She repeated the cycle
and inflicted the same pain she endured
 
She chose her comfort of toxicity,
her ego, her self righteousness.
 
Kept the "blood" family close
even if they hurt her daughter.
 
The saddest part is,
She would do it all over again
in the name of "we did our best". 
 
- Divi Maggo
evile: (coyote)
 spent the weekend feeling bored and unhappy. did some laundry. made pancakes sunday morning that weren't rocks but weren't all that great. I've never been able to make a pancake.

Took the dogs to the dog park saturday evening. Took the dogs to Bull Creek Park Sunday. That was crowded and not entirely pleasant but I wanted to be out of the house. 

I never feel like I am using my weekends/ free time wisely or well. There's always work to do and I never want to do it. But I never feel like I can be free to do anything 'fun' if there' work to do. and somehow zoning out with computer or phone doom scrolling is my only get out of jail free card I can use in the 'if you haven't done any work, you don't get any fun' conundrum. dissociating is a free space on the game board of 'bored/uhappy' I guess....

work is a steep learning curve and I got cut ouf of the main group of trainees due to my technical problems and haven't been let back in so it's just me and the trainer trading messages and i don't feel like I hear anything positive, only about my mistakes. Which is my own brain-weevil left over from 20+ years of abuse at the state. I should not be a baby about this and understand my place...it's a 1 year contract, they don't owe me anything other than a paycheck. I don't owe them anything other than 40 hours of sincere effort per week.  my job is not who I am and how easily it comes to me, or doesn't, is not a measure of how good or bad I am as a human being. and, besides all that, if I was doing that badly, the company would just call my staffing agency and say 'this one is a dud, send us another,'.and that hasn't happened, so everything is OK no matter how much I think I am floundering.

I am not looking forward to the changes  in my life that will come when my mom is moved to a facility here in town; I am not looking forward to adding that trip to her place daily to my routine. And my sister picked a location that isn't easy for my brother to get to on his bike, and I know he will want to see her daily. so I'll probably be giving him rides, and then just sitting there while he entertains her. Mom loves A and they have a similar sense of humor and get along well. I did not get along well with my mom when she was 100% all there, and I don't really know what to do or say with the person she has become. I am sad and angry that she has wanted to die for ...well, my entire life, but definitely the last 2 years, and that can't  happen....the waste of resources to take care of someone who doesn't even want to be here is galling and inhumane, to my mind. which makes me feel guilty, like I"m just vulturing around for my stepdads' money which is absolutely not the thing of it AT ALL....just, I hate this for her. But her last suicide attempt that she made when she was in any mental state to make that kind of decision, didn't work, and here we all are. 

I dreamed about Anthony Bourdain last night; there was a gathering of people, his ex mother in law was supervising me as I made some favorite pasta dish for everyone. I didn't have enough of the right kind of noodles.  Once it was ready, some people took large plates and secnd while other people had not even taken a first serving.I took a small portion, just a couple of spoonfulls of pasta and sauce an some veg, trying to leave some for others... and then there was something about his daughter had an immune disorder and his ex wife was telling me about it and I was worried because the kid hadn 't gotten a plate or anything to eat when everyone else did... I dunno, it was stressful.

anyway.... life goes on whether we like it or not. 

yesterday was tough. Father's day.   I should not take  my remaining father figure for granted, m y uncle B is my godfather, and he's done a really good job of being there for me. Probably better than my bio dad (he was likely avoidant/on the spectrum + my mom made it very difficult for him and me to connect)...and my mom said sharp/critical/mean spirited things to/about/around me and my stepdad bonding/talking, too....unplesant person she was. yup. 


evile: (taurusgirl)
I don't really know what to say on Mother's Day. Never have, really.

I have a mother. And I don't.

Her body is here, her mind is locked away. She says alzheimers, but she recognizes people and can name them. She seems to have trouble forming her ideas into words. Mostly repeats the last words someone said, can reform sentences from "do you want ice cream" to "I want ice cream"  or "do I want ice cream?"  but doesn't volunteer information or say things independently. Mostly. When my stepdad died she got up on her own and walked to the nurse station to tell them. Asked the next day "is my husband still dead," and asked me"are you surprised?" sort of out of the clear blue when I was getting ready to drive back to TX after he passed. I knew she was asking if I was surprised that Greg passed before she did.

This new mom is soft and sweet. She's not the mom I grew up with.   I don't have a lot of memories. Probably because a lot of things that happened were not good things.  I do wish I remembered the good things better. I know there were many.

My mother and my father's mother have things in common that are/were unpleasant. Probably one of the reasons he picked her. She is/was also very beautiful.

No woman can live up to all of the demands society places on women; the judgements and pronouncements and shoulds of Motherhood. It's awful. There's no one right way to do it and so many wrong ways that face such condemnation from everyone. So much competition. Just listening to my ex friend X and her friend Goldrie one upping and shitting on each other in that special 'sweet' way that mothers/women have of shitting on each other with the bless your heart smile on their face. So frenemy. Much wow. So awful. So glad I never entered that particular contest. Being female has been so awful, even without that. Glad I am an old fat neuter now.

I don't really know what to say, or do, or feel, on a day that honors all of the impossible things people expect, society demands, of women who choose to have children. Or are/were compelled to have children under the laws of the time. Goddess help us. So many not suited to bear or raise children and do it anyway.  I wish it wasn't so. 

I hope whatever kind of day you're having,  whoever is reading this , is peaceful and pleasant and uncomplicated. I hope the world gets better for women. I suspect it will not.


evile: (slap)
Tell people you love them, make whatever peace you need to make, before you die, before those near to you die. Before the time comes that it is too late. And you never know how early that time will be, for you or for anyone near to you. 

I've noticed A Thing.  The collapsing/aging narcissist (abuser) is past their prime, sick, no longer charming or pretty or capable of much quick wit, no longer capable of performing acrobatically perverted sexual acts that would make a goat vomit with disgust, many or most of their targets have them on no contact, grey rock, limited contact, and they are running out of supply. So they fall back once again to their 'poor pitiful me' act. "You only have one [mother, father, grandmother, bla bla] and I'll be gone soon, so wouldn't it be good to make peace, forgive, bla bla bla"......this of course doesn't mean that the narc abuser will acknowledge their harm, make amends, offer apologies, or improve their behavior. This means that they want you to come running to their deathbed with flowers and gifts and tears and apologies [you. apologize to them. for their abuse of you. yep that's cool, right?]

Adjacent to that is the "I know you don't talk to me about [problem/person/situation] but I have secret breadcrumbs of information I will scatter so that you will ask me about [problem/person/situation]  and I can get you all stirred up and upset and irrational and feed on your feelings and use your upset feelings to show everyone that YOU are the problem person in our relationship,"  

It is not a genuine wish for reconciliation, peace, or a real apology or extension of forgiveness. It is a manipulation, designed to pull people in for another bite, to make more drama, to get more narcissistic supply by stirring the pot, to set yourself up as some kind of noble soul for extending this olive branch and offering people you've fucked over to come and grovel for your love and forgiveness.

My mom did that to me when she learned that X was having some health issue. She ramped it up [either because of her imaginative nature or penchant for drama, or whatever] to a 'stage 4' diagnosis and "begged" me to "make peace" with her. For the sake of my soul or some shit, I suppose.   I resisted her drama and did not re-engage with X. Learned later that it was not as dire of a diagnosis as my mom had said, but she inserted herself into the middle of a situation and made it sound worse than it was in order to feed off drama, set me off and upset me, so that I could once again be the reactive, crazy bag of shit that I am/was  in every fucking situation when it comes to me and crazy abusive user assholes.

"Oh I'm dying, please come weep at my deathbed,"....no thanks.   If there is genuine mourning for the loss of a relationship, I've done it, and when there is death, I will probably mourn again for what I thought I had with that person, and the bitter reality of what it actually was, and what I wish it had been. Potential to dust.

So, here is where I"m at with "making peace" and "forgiveness" and all of that shit.

I AM at peace with my decisions to exclude certain people from my life for as long as I continue to be alive.  What happened, what was said or done, is in the past and is no longer harming me except if I allow myself to rehash those old things and hurt myself with the old stories again.  I choose not to do that.  Forgiveness is not a transaction. I do not need to re engage with those people in order to discuss what was said and done, when, and to whom, who did it first, who did it worse, why they/I did it.  Forgiveness means it is not a current situation, it is not currently harming me, and I am not giving those people any place or power in my life to harm me further.  Peace means it is done and I am done.   I have made my peace. I will not re-engage with people who have harmed me in the past. If they regret those harms, as I regret the harms I've done, they should take the lesson in how to treat people better (if they are capable of learning, which narcissists are generally NOT) and do so with the people they currently still have in their lives. Take the lesson and do better next time you have a similar situation or opportunity.  That is making peace. 



ick dream

Aug. 10th, 2023 02:04 pm
evile: (lamson)
 at some kind of art installation/performance art space. Somehow it became a Santa claus meet n greet, starring one of our friends from the Steampunk world who is a Santa in RL.   Little kids everywhere, just jazzed about Santa. Then my mom comes walking through the crowd, announcing at intervalls "We're all going to die! We're all going to die!"

Don't need a Dr. Freud to interpret that one.
Cut it out, scumbag brain.
evile: (steambug)
Went from Austin to Indiana and back,with a stop in Oklahoma to see family there. Left July 1, got home yesterday July 13.   Sallisaw Ok, Eureka Springs AR, Springfield MO (just overnite, watched fireworks from our hotel window)  Bloomington IN, Greencastle IN, Brown County IN & various Indiana back roads hither and yon, then Hot Springs AR, and home.

This was a good trip. It felt longer than it actually was, due to all the adventures we managed to shove in. I didn't take any photos in Sallisaw :(

It was good to see family. I am glad we had sort of a general outline that we filled in as we went, that was a fun way to travel. Originally I'd planned to go to Tulsa and spend a day there, maybe see some friends who live there (Kaleon & his wife S.) and spend some more time with my cousin Weez' oldest girl G and her husband who are both nerds. G's husband and Thax have a good bit in common.  But Weez' husband was talking up Eureka Springs so much, I ended up convincing Weez and her husband to take an impromptu overnite trip to Eureka Springs instead. (or maybe her husband convinced me...heehee) Stayed at the New Orleans Hotel. It was fabulous. We rode the trolley, saw Christ of the Ozarks and the historic Crescent Hotel, Magnetic Spring, Grotto Spring, and listened to a blues duet in Basin Spring Park. Really nice time.

Pre covid pandemic I was much more of a planner, having days, places, reservations, and even my outfits planned out in advance. (Speaking of outfits, I didn't need as many clothes as I packed.) Changing things from Tulsa to Eureka Springs would have discombobulated me too much and I probably wouldnt' have done it. Glad I am a little more flexible and changeable these days and not so brittle and easily freaked out.

We got to Bloomington IN a day earlier than I'd planned to be in Indiana but it was not a big deal, my sister had a guest bed all ready for us :) We got to sleep with dogs again after a few days of dog free sleep. Her dogs are bigger than Sunny but lighter than Boba and they curl up very small so they were lovely snugglers.  We made lemoncello and lemon bars from lemons they had left over from a girl scout lemonade stand that was not as successful as they wanted it to be. We took my niece Eme to her week of girl scout camp. Apparently they can choose 'specialities' or tracks at camp so she is in the horse group. Other girls are in general camp where they do a little of everything, some girls are in boating/swimming type stuff, there's a lot of land out there and a lot of activities and they have their own lake. Apparently during the pandemic, they opened their site for people affiliated with the scouts to come camp with their families, and H. says it saved her sanity to be able to come and camp from time to time over that year. 

We made steaks and various veggies, including fresh indiana corn, one night over at my stepdad's house, drank wine, watched dumb TV, visited. It was good.   I brought the HEB coffee that he and my mom like, so they're all stocked up for a while.  We are all past the point of wanting 'stuff' as presents (except maybe my brother A, he's catching up on things he missed in prison so he's still keen on getting 'stuff'--though he is checking out books and movies and music from the library and saving the digital stuff to his computer, so that's helping)

We played cards and trivia one night with my sister H and her husband.  I had not seen her husband smile and laugh so much. He is a bit of a nerd and Thax thinks he has a  hard time with just small talk, and I know he isn't forthcoming on 'deep conversation' because he's very private...so gaming is something he's comfortable with that makes him happy. It was fun to play games. We didn't play anything that took too long or had complicated rules. I can deal with games like that. I just can't spend hours and hours learning the rules and playing some long drawn out saga type game....not my thing. So that was fun.

And then on the way home, we drove to Hot Springs and stopped there for the night. We stayed at the Hotel Arlington, one of the historic hotels that still has hot mineral water piped into the rooms. We got in a little after 5 so we were able to walk around and see a few sights, get some dinner, swim in the pool of our hotel (spring fed,not chlorine! nice!) and enjoy ourselves a bit before we drove home the next day. The dogs were happy to see us but Sunny was a little pouty for a while. She snuggled and slept with us all night, though. I think I slept almost 12 hours last night.

I feel like I was able to give to my various family in various love languages that they speak and understand and appreciate--games with brother in law, cooking together with H and dad/G, cookies and lemon bars and fudge to my mom, quality time and shared experiences with my cousin Weez...food and drinks and togetherness. Listening to my dad when he wanted to tell stories about work and life.  That was all really, really good.

I'm glad and grateful for my job that gives me both enough money to travel with and the free time to do so (without any guilt trips or hassles from management--the state was bad about that) I'm glad and SO Grateful that Thax and I travel so well together. We are a good team. I got a little frazzled towards the end; there was a lot of emotion in seeing mom and in helping my sister H. sort out K/mom's art room and the family photos piled up in there. H lives closest so, after our stepdad G. on the front line, she is bearing the brunt of things there. G. is retiring end of August and bringing mom home from the care facility to live at home. Their life is going to be very simple, of necessity due to Mom's health and abilities. I hope it all works out. Mom and G's house  is big and there's a lot of stairs. They'll be living downstairs in the house but there is no way in or out of that house that doesn't involve stairs and the laundry stuff is in the basement. more stairs. He's having railings installed on the front and back stairs outside but there's not much to do about the shitty basement stairs. I'd be happier if they were in a single level  home with no stairs at all.

speaking of stairs, all the stairs in Eureka Springs and Indiana and Hot Springs were good for me.My knee and ankle are complainy in the morning but the movement was good for them and strengthened them. Seeing my mom so weak after her hip break made me really want to work on being stronger.

Sadly, I don't remember the last time I talked, for real, with Mom. (to be honest, I often dreaded it. I didn't want to hear what I'd done wrong or how I'd fucked up, after the fact)  And now that can't happen ever again, for good or ill. She's not herself anymore, she smiles alot and just repeats what you say to her mostly. Some spontaneous words but not many. In a way she's easier and more delightful to deal with now that she's not stubborn, wilful, spiteful, judgemental, intolerant, and impatient....but she's not really  Mom without those qualities. And of course she's not able to read, write, type, draw, or create her art anymore so that's a huge loss. I don't want to say or imply that my mom is 100% a terrible person or anything....it's complicated.She is a magnificent being, bigger than life in a lot of ways, amazingly creative and talented, adventur5ous, fearless, fantastically intelligent,  hugely damaged. Selfish. Narcissistic. Self centered. Manipulative. I don't think she ever made a choice in life that wasn't about her and what she wanted to do...and if she felt like she had to do something that she didn't actually want to do or like doing, she'd do victim/martyr/ passive agressive punishments for 'making' her do things she didn't want to do. I see a lot of that in myself and I fairly well loathe those tendencies.  I recognize where they come from but it's still a huge step from realizing 1) my upbringing fucked me up and taught me shitty ways to behave 2) I don't want to be that or do that to 3) fixing my shit

Two recent-ish revelations in that vein re: mom.  1) she did parental alienation on me and my father's relationship. She manipulated him and me both. It's not fixable. It has to be forgiven because I can't be bitter about that, even if it hurts when I think about it too much. I just have to accept it and let it go. Ho'opono. and 2) the daughter she wanted or should have had is someone more like my SIL Skye_ds.  Mom and her have more in common than mom and I (too much like my father) A lot of the gifts my mom sent me over the years were things that would have been more suited and more delightful to Skye than to me (purple, witchy, horsey, jewelry meant for smaller wrists and fingers than mine, shoes meant for smaller feet than mine--Skye's). So...another piece of that unpleasant and problematic relationship...on some level recognizing that Skye is the  daughter my mother wanted, not me. (Obviously I'm talking about the good parts of Skye's personality, not her abusive and damaged parts) ..the horse stuff, the witchy stuff, the independent and entrepreneurial stuff...not the mean bitchy stuff.  

I wanted to tell mom I love her and ask her to forgive me for not being the daughter she wanted, and tell her that I forgive her too...but I teared up and could not get it out. I did say I love you....but not the rest. And that sucks.

anyhoo...it was a good trip. I got brittle and easily freaked out towards the end and slid into 'all I do is make mistakes, nothing I do is right' mode ...and it's so frustrating to watch myself crawling further and further up my own ass and yet be seemingly unable to stop myself from continuing along those lines. Thax doesn't know what to do with me when I get like that either...it's really a no win situation. No matter what he does or says it just increases my disgust and loathing of myself in that moment.  Oh, wait, I didn't take that triple reuptake inhibitor while I was out of town because it requires refrigeration. So I guess if nothing else this shows me that the stuff works. So, back on it.

also I am up to 250 lbs. whee.


OH! and while we were traveling, Thax got a call with a job offer, so his new job starts Monday the 17th. He had at least 4 weeks of severance/pto pay out from his job that ended 6/30 so no paychecks missed during his short stint of being unemployed.  Woot! 
evile: (lamson)
 
Is it wrong to send a sarcastic Mother's Day card (seen in the Narcissism Recess space) to my narcissistic mother, who constantly scrutinizes my thoughtful, expensive gifts, dismisses them, and asks me to return them as they don't meet her standards?

Wrong for whom, or what reason? I mean, there’s no law saying that you have to observe Mothers' Day in any way whatsoever.

If you are still chasing approval or affection from the defective creature who birthed you, you more than likely know on some level that’s not going to happen, and this has created a bitter need to hurt the person who hurts you by dismissing and rejecting your attempts to please them.

If you want a reaction or a conflict in lieu of any softer form of acknowledgement, yes, you will likely get a rise by sending a rude card. But, stop and ask yourself what you hope to accomplish in the long run with this gesture.

I suspect this impulse is coming from your wounded inner child and I suspect that grown-up you knows such an impulse is foolish and destructive, even if it gives you some temporary satisfaction to ‘put her in her place’ or 'get her goat'.

If someone has dismissed and rejected your attempts at kindness and generosity, you are not obligated to gift them or acknowledge them in any way any more. You can still send a card or give that person a call to say hello, but it is best for your own healing and for your sweet, hurt inner child, to keep contact with that person as brief and impersonal as possible, given what you now know about your mother. You don't have to let other people's ill treatment of you make you into a person who is mean and deliberately cruel. If you become a monster too, then the monster wins.

On this Mother’s Day, nurture and love your inner child with something special for yourself, be it brunch with friends, time with a child, animal,  garden, or some other young life you can give ‘mothering’ energy to, time with a person who gives you nurturing and ‘mothering’ energy, a quiet walk in nature, a day with a good book and delicious warm tea, or some other healing, healthy activity for yourself. Just for you. Give yourself the mothering you wish you had gotten, and the gratitude and kindness you wish you had received.



=====================

 

cycles

Feb. 20th, 2023 11:35 am
evile: (clutter)
 I have been observing a cycle that I'd like to write about  in some coherent way but it just isn't coming together very well. It's something I saw and experienced many times growing up and into young adulthood, it 'feels' like  a predictable cycle, but it also feels like it's reaching into several  different 'cycles' at the same time; I don't really know how to explain it.   Part of it is a passive-agressive thing, part of it is the cycle of abuse, bullying, the narcissist's refusal to accept responsibility & their tendency to double standards --brutal honesty to others, too fragile to hear or see the truth when it's given back to them in any way, be it brutal honesty or gentle questioning....the cycle of arrogance/abuse, 'you owe me an apology' to the victim playing, oh poor me, I have dissapointed and failed someone who mattered so much to me (that I was verbally abusing with 'brutal truth/honesty' just a few days ago, and now that they've shut the door on me I am trying to lure them back with more passive agressive behavior " I have never once intended to hurt anyone on purpose. No, not even those who have hurt me on purpose.".--which is such laughable BS. The first thing they try to do is hurt the person back, and then if that doesn't get them what they want, they go to victim-playing..all of this indirect acting out type behavior, nothing honest and humble toward the target of the 'performance' ...nothing geared toward repairing the relationship, letting each person have their say, apologies, forgiveness, changed behavior...just this performance.

I dunno. I can't really make it work.  Let's just leave it at....I see it, it's a pattern, glad I don't live there anymore
.


editing to add. Here it is.

https://youtu.be/FRbmsQ3WW_4
evile: (taurusgirl)
How does the scapegoat stop being jealous of the golden child, because the golden child gets everything the scapegoat wanted, but he can't get it because of emotional neglect?
 


Accept it. This is easier said than done, I know, and I’m so sorry.

When you come from a toxic family where one kid is perfect and the other kid can’t do anything right, when you come from a family where you are bullied and if you fight back you are the one ‘starting fights’ or ‘causing trouble’ or ‘embarrassing the family’…. all you can do is withdraw from that situation and choose low or no contact once you are an adult, and accept what happened.

It’s not a reflection of you, your value as a person, your worth, your accomplishments, or anything to do with you. It is a dysfunctional, sick and possibly evil person trying to use their children as sick little sock puppets in their weird internal psychodrama.

It is not easy. You will break your own heart a million times trying to get the love and acceptance you wanted and needed--and deserved! as a child from people who are absolutely incapable of giving it.

Accept it. The narcissist (abuser) is not going to change or apologize. The golden child has their own issues that they may never be aware of or heal from. You were a child when this happened, and you had no control over it. The Golden Child was a child when this happened, too, and they did not control the situation either. They did not pick their role even if it seemed they were benefiting from it. As adults, they may continue to play that role in order to get things from the narcissist parent.  I hope you will eventually see that for the unhealthy relationship it is.

You can’t go back in time and change the situation you suffered growing up. Accept that the person who can change and heal is YOU. The lost and lonely child, that ‘fuck up’ that ‘useless’ that ‘clumsy’ that… fill in the blank, whatever awful thing your family of origin said about you….is  not the person that you ARE or WERE.

Comfort that inner child by reassuring him or her that you are safe now, you are able to choose healthy people to be in your life--you are loved, you are loveable, you are good, you are safe. As an adult, you are able to give everything to yourself that you needed, deserved and did not receive when you were small.

Once you are in a more healed place, you may be able to have a new relationship with the Golden Child, where you are both adults and not competing for the toxic attention of a sick parent who did not really love either of you. I hope that can happen.

Acceptance is the first step. I’m sorry this happened to you. Be well. <3

=====================
 
evile: (deadmoon)
 https://youtu.be/upAdaOmiRX8


My upbringing had these elements: 

Chaos
Toxic Divorce
Single parent 




evile: (Default)
Good article. Touches on some of what I've found, felt, discovered re: forgiveness. Unfortunately, mostly, it's not a matter of the other person acknowleging harm or changing their behavior, atoning, or doing better.    It's just me deciding that I didn't deserve to be treated that way, I am safe and gone from that person, and I'm not going to keep hurting myself by re-telling the story of what happened and how it made me feel.

I can't, or won't, be close with the person who did harm and didn't care enough to recognize it, regret it, apologize, make amends, change behavior...but I don't need to be.  It's OK for that person to either be gone from my life, or if they are family, to be on a very removed level. 

It's wierd to get to a point in life to recognize that in a lot of ways you've matured past  a parent, grandparent, or other elder member....and it's OK to feel affection and kindness for a person who wasn't what you needed as a child, and will never be.  Still sad, but not world ending.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tech-support/201612/should-you-forgive-your-unloving-mother

"I think forgiveness is a personal choice, and there is no yes or no answer. I think that no matter how I or anyone else defines the word forgiveness, to me, it feels like it excuses what was done, and I just can't use that word."

Twin Sails/Shutterstock
Source: Twin Sails/Shutterstock

There’s probably no subject more fraught than the question of forgiveness in a situation where you feel deeply wronged or betrayed. It’s especially true when the question is asked in regard to a mother whose cardinal responsibility was to love and take care of you, and who failed you in ways that matter, the effects of which stay with you from childhood into adulthood. “To err is human, to forgive divine,” wrote Alexander Pope, and that's essentially a cultural trope: The ability to forgive, particularly in the wake of egregious hurt or violation, is usually understood as a marker of moral and spiritual evolution, endowed with specific authority by its inclusion in the Judeo-Christian tradition, specifically in the Lord’s Prayer.

 

Recognizing cultural bias is important because an unloved daughter will feel pressured to forgive her mother. That pressure can come from close friends, acquaintances, relatives, strangers, and even a therapist; her efforts to forgive may be fueled by her need to show herself as morally superior to her mother as well.

 

But even though there seems to be a consensus that forgiveness constitutes the high road, there’s also a fair amount of confusion about what forgiveness is and isn’t. Does it absolve a person of wrongdoing or excuse him or her? Or is it about something else? Is forgiveness about the other person or is it about the person professing it? Is It about letting go of anger? Does forgiving give you an advantage that vengefulness doesn’t? Or does it turn you into a patsy or an enabler? These are questions we have tried to answer for years.

 

[The quotations in this post are from readers on my Facebook page to whom I posed the question: “Should you forgive your mother?”]

The Psychology of Forgiveness

"I'm getting to the point of genuine forgiveness because I can't hang on to my abusive past if I want a better future. It doesn't excuse the things she did to me, but I deserve the freedom to have peace and love in my heart that I never learned from her."

 

At the beginning of their history, humans were more likely to survive in groups than as singletons or couples, so it’s theorized that forgiveness emerged as a prosocial behavior; revenge or retribution doesn’t just separate you from the transgressor and his allies but might, in fact, run counter to the communal interests of the tribe. In an article by Jeni L. Burnette and colleagues, the researchers hypothesize that forgiveness as a strategy might have evolved as a function of calculating the risks of revenge against the possible benefits of the relationship. The thinking goes like this: The younger guy has poached your mate from your tribe of hunters and gatherers, but it occurs to you that he is also one of the strongest men in the tribe and very useful in flood season. What should you do? Use revenge as a deterrent against future encroachments or bet on the value of his future cooperation and go with forgiveness? In a series of experiments, the team found that, among college students, there was a calculation of exploitation risk and relationship vale which fostered considering forgiveness.

 

"Almost always, when someone wants you to forgive them their mistreatment of you, they really mean, 'Stay in the relationship with me so you can continue to fill my ego needs.' Walk away, or run from them and do not look back. Burn bridges and boats if you must, but do not let them back into your life. You do not owe them forgiveness, redemption, atonement, or enlightenment at your expense."

 

Other studies show that certain personality traits actually make some people more likely to forgive—or, more precisely, more prone to believe in forgiveness as a helpful and useful strategy after they've been wronged. An article by Michael McCullough suggests that people who thrive in the realm of relationships are more forgiving, as are people who are emotionally stable and those who are more religious and spiritual. The researchers also assert that specific psychological processes are at play when people forgive: Empathy for the transgressor, the ability to give the transgressor the benefit of the doubt (being generous in both the appraisal of the wrongdoer’s behavior and the severity of the wrong itself), and the tendency not to ruminate about the betrayal or wrong. Although the article doesn’t mention attachment, it’s worth noting that the insecurely attached woman—a common byproduct of a childhood in which your emotional needs weren’t met—isn’t likely to be able to process events in these ways.

A meta-analytic review suggests that there’s a connection between self-control and forgiveness, the thinking being that since the impulse to be vengeful is more “primitive,” being constructive instead is a sign of self-control. (Frankly, this sounds like the cultural bias at work but more on that anon.)

 

The Kiss of the Porcupine and Other Insights

"How can you forgive a mother who not only refuses to acknowledge the hurt you suffered by her actions, but is shocked that you think your childhood was painful and she was cruel to you? I refuse to validate her treatment of me. I choose to self-parent and love the child within. I love her and care for her the way she deserves, with kindness and time and care. This takes so much energy and thought and is, at times, difficult. If only I was parented well to begin with. How can I possibly let go of myself and prove her right with my forgiveness? I do not hang on to a bucket of burden and hate, I have worked through and processed my emotions around my childhood and will continue to do so by keeping the little me close but I cannot offer forgiveness to her while she is in denial of her mean cruel treatment of me."

Frank Fincham, an expert on forgiveness, offers up the image of two kissing porcupines as emblematic of the human conundrum. Imagine the two on a frigid night, snuggling to stay warm, enjoying the closeness, until someone’s quill pierces the other’s skin. Ouch! Because humans are social creatures, we make ourselves vulnerable to ouch moments in our quest for intimacy. Fincham carefully parses what forgiveness is and isn’t, and his definitions are worth keeping in mind.

 

Forgiveness isn’t denial or pretending that the hurt didn’t happen. In fact, it confirms the hurt because forgiveness wouldn’t otherwise be warranted. Additionally, forgiveness confirms the act or transgression as intentional since unintentional acts don’t require forgiveness. For example, when a limb from your neighbor’s tree smashes your car’s windshield, no forgiveness is required. But when your neighbor takes a limb and smashes your windshield out of anger, you’re in different territory.

 

Forgiveness, Fincham argues, doesn’t imply reconciliation or reunion; while it’s true that reconciliation requires forgiveness, you can forgive someone and still have nothing to do with them in the future. Finally—and this seems especially important—forgiveness isn’t a single act, but a process. It requires managing the negative emotions that are a consequence of the act and substituting goodwill for the impulse to strike back. It’s a process that involves a considerable amount of emotional and cognitive work and so, as Fincham notes, the statement, “I am trying to forgive you,” is particularly true and meaningful.

 

Does Forgiveness Always Work?

"I have forgiven my mother time and time again. I went back hoping for a different outcome but, alas, it never happened. I understand she wasn't born this person—that things happened, choices were made, something is broken inside her. I feel she's too far gone in this persona of me, me, me. It was a revolving door for me. I tried to get away but then some crisis would arise and of course I was right there to save the day because that's who I am and she was my mom. Then the crisis would pass and things went back to 'normal.' I lived this way for way too long. I have finally cut ties and phone numbers."

 

I think you already know the answer to the question of whether forgiveness always works, either from personal experience or anecdote: The short answer is it does not. Let’s turn to research to understand the downside to forgiveness; an article appropriately titled “The Doormat Effect” can be considered a cautionary tale for daughters considering both forgiving their mothers and remaining in the relationship.

 

In a bit of contrarian research—the vast majority of studies look at the benefits of forgiveness—Laura Luchies, Eli Finkel, and others looked at whether forgiveness was as universal a panacea as it appeared. Not altogether surprisingly, they found that forgiveness is only beneficial when certain conditions are met—that is, when the transgressor has made amends and worked to change his or her behavior. If that happens, then the self-concept and self-respect of the forgiving person remain intact. But when the offender doesn’t—or, even worse, sees forgiveness as an open invitation to keep breaching the trust in the relationship—the person’s self-concept is understandably eroded and he or she will feel used and stupid. Despite the body of research seeming to recommend forgiveness as a panacea, they wrote:

 

"[T]he responses of both victims and perpetrators are influential following a betrayal. Victims’ self-respect and self-concept clarity are determined not only by their own decision whether to forgive or not but also by their perpetrators’ decision whether to act in a manner that signals that the victim will be safe or valued or not.”

 

Unless your mother has come to the table, openly acknowledged her treatment of you, and vowed to work with you to change her ways, it may well be that forgiving is just a way of re-establishing your status as a doormat.

Daughters, the Dance of Denial, and Forgiveness

"Yes! You've expressed well what I have experienced. Part of this forgiveness is the recognition that I am not going to get the love I want from my mother and I STOP WORKING FOR IT. Then I allow myself to find love where it truly is instead of where it isn't. Then there is peace in my own heart!"

 

Clinicians and researchers agree that forgiveness of transgressions is a cornerstone of maintaining intimate relationships, especially marriage, but that certain caveats do apply: The relationship must be one of equals, without an imbalance of power, and with equal investment and recognition of the benefits of the connection. By definition, the relationship between the mother and the unloved child isn’t one of equals, not even if the daughter is an adult. She still wants and needs the maternal love and support she didn’t get.

 

Forgiveness may actually get in the way of the daughter’s appreciation of how she’s been wounded and her healing. It can become part of what I call the dance of denial—the explanations that rationalize and normalize her mother’s words and actions: “She doesn’t know she’s hurting me,” “Her own childhood was lousy so she doesn’t know any better,” “I’m probably too sensitive like she says.” Because the ability to forgive is considered a sign of moral worthiness—setting you apart from the grudge-holders of the world—a daughter may unconsciously believe that showing herself worthy in this way will finally get her what she wants: Her mother’s love.

 

So it might not be about whether you forgive your mother, but when you do and your deepest motivation for doing so.

Forgiveness After Going No Contact

"Forgiveness comes with healing, and healing begins with honesty and self-love. And by forgiveness, I don't mean saying, 'It's OK what you did because I see you just made a mistake and you had no bad intentions.' That's the 'normal' kind of forgiveness that we exercise every day, because we as humans are flawed and we do make mistakes. But this kind of forgiveness is different. This forgiveness is saying, 'I see the truth of what you did, it was horrible and unacceptable, and has caused me irreparable harm; but I am moving on with my healing in life and letting you go.' That is the forgiveness I am working toward as I heal from severe traumas. But again, forgiveness is not the goal. Healing is the goal. Forgiveness comes as a result of healing."

 

Many unloved daughters speak of forgiveness as a final step in letting go; it seems less about forgiving their mothers than choosing to no longer focus on them. It’s true that continuing to feel anger—feeling the active sting of how miserably your mother treated you, the ongoing appreciation of how terribly unfair it was that she was your mother in the first place—keeps you emotionally in the relationship even if you’ve abandoned it. In this scenario, forgiveness becomes the ultimate act of disengagement.

 

One daughter, though, was careful to draw a distinction between forgiveness and disengagement, a point of view worth considering:

"Here's the thing: I'm not turning the other cheek and offering the olive branch (ever again). The closest I can get to forgiveness is 'let go of the story' in the Buddhist sense. Ruminating about it builds a rut in the brain, so I stay in the moment. When I catch myself thinking about it, I come back to the present moment, perhaps by focusing on my breath. Again and again and again. As many times as it takes. Depression is thinking about the past and anxiety is thinking about the future. Mindfulness has been the answer. Compassion also stops the rut-building process in the brain, so I think about what must have happened to my mother. But I do that for the benefit of my brain. Forgiveness? No."

 

The decision to forgive your mother is complex, and depends on motivations and intentions perhaps more than not. I’m often asked if I’ve forgiven my own mother; the truth is that I haven’t. I find intentional cruelty toward children an unforgivable act, and she certainly was guilty of that, so no forgiveness there. But if one component of forgiveness is letting go, that’s another matter. The truth is that I never, ever think about my mother unless I am writing about her. In a sense, that’s the ultimate disengagement.

 

Many thanks to my readers on Facebook who contributed their words and thoughts.

Copyright © 2016 Peg Streep

Visit me on Facebook. These ideas are fully explained in my book, Daughter Detox: Recovering from an Unloving Mother and Reclaiming Your Life. You may also want to read Mean Mothers: Overcoming the Legacy of Hurt.

 

References

Burnette, Jeni L., Michael E. McCullough, Daryl R, Van Tongeren, and Don E. Davis “Forgiveness Results from integrating Information about Relationship Value and Exploitation Risk,” Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin (2012), 38 (3), 345-356.

McCulllough, Michael E. “Forgiveness: Who Does It and How Do They Do It?,”Current Directions in Psychological Science, (December, 2001) vol. 10, no. 6, 194-197.

Burnette, Jeni L, Erin K. Davisson, Eli J. Finkel et al. “Self Control and Forgiveness: A Meta-Analytic Review, “Social Psychology and Personality Science (2014), vol. 5 (4), 443-450.

Fincham, Frank,” The Kiss of the Porcupines: From Attributing Responsibility to Forgiving,” Personal Relationships (2000), 7, 1-23.

Luchies, Laura B. and Eli J. Finkel, James K. McNulty and Madoka Kumashiro, "The Doormat Effect: When Forgiveness Erodes Self-Respect and Self-Concept Clarity," Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (2010), vol.98, no. 5, 734-749.

Fincham, Frank D., Julie Hall and Steven R.H. Beach, “Forgiveness in Marriage:Current Status and Future Directions,” Family Relations, 55 (October 2006), 415-427.

evile: (deadmoon)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tech-support/201703/daughters-unloving-mothers-mourning-the-mom-you-deserved 

This is such a complicated thing....my mom didn't have the mom she deserved. Her mom probably didn't have the mom she deserved, either. My father for damn sure didn't have the mom he deserved. How far back do we need to go before we can stop blaming? Before it becomes absurd?

Going from personal to universal, looking out at society, you have all of these impossible demands & expectations of motherhood. Moms are supposed to be such perfect saints. Always patient, always loving, always kind, always THERE.  You breastfeed you baby for too long or not long enough-you're a terrible mother. You bottle feed = your'e a terrible mother. You let your kids eat dirt and play outside=you're a terrible mother. You don't let your kids play outside=you're a terrible mother. Your kids cry in public=you're a terrible mother. Your kids are tidy, polite, and quiet =you must be abusing them in private to make them act so cowed, you're a terrible mother. Your kids are too loud, too smart, too quiet, too emotional, too outspoken, too tall, too short, too fat, too thin = you're a terrible mother. Hug them too much, you're hovering and spoiling them, turning them into mama's boys/girls, you're a terrible mother. Ignore them when they fuss, you're a terrible mother. Send them to public schoo, you're a terrible mother. Send them to private school, you're a terrible mother. Send them to daycare while you work, you're a terrible mother. Stay at home to raise them, you're just a lazy whore who wants to sit on the couch and watch TV on your husband's dime & post on social media about how hard it is being a mom= also a terrible mother.  And,  you would think this shit comes from men against women but no, it is women saying this shit about other women. Mommy blogs are full of vicious, venomous bile against other moms who aren't doing it 'right'.  It seems like moms have no way to ever, ever, EVER be 'good'....(one of the thousands of reasons I never had kids)


Honestly, I think what people need is a female God, not some impossibly perfect mother who is never, ever going to be able to live up to the arbitrary & contrary demands of society.  And, maybe, on some level, the reason humanity turned to a male god is because of that original infant-wound, that fist time we woke up hungry, dirty, wet, and there wasn't an umbilical cord from Mother, bringing us everything we needed and taking away all our filth.  Mommy is bad, she doesn't love us, maybe Daddy will. If we are good enough. 

It's exhausting and frustrating. I really would like to think (hope) that as soon as we're old enough to realize our parents fucked us up (even if they were doing their best), we are old enough to get to healing and forgiving and growing the fuck up.
evile: (mask)
How old were you when you fell for your narcissist mate? We feel naive and gullible but I was only 18, just an inexperienced kid. She saw that I was useful and successful so she pounced.




I think you are definitely on to something there. My first serious relationship didn’t happen until I was 20–21, but I was sexually inexperienced and emotionally clueless at that age. The guy was a user, a cheater, and a thief. I didn’t have much, but I had a steady job and a place to live, which must have seemed like heaven to a perpetually-unemployed couch surfer bum.

Again, as you say “I was useful and successful so [the narc] pounced” I am really lucky that my circumstances forced me to move just as he was getting comfortable sponging off me.

I was distracted from relationships for a few years while I got my college career squared away, and then I found another ‘winner’ at age 25. That one, unfortunately, lasted about 12 years. But I grew up, realized that I deserved to be loved and appreciated and not just used, and did what I needed to do to be free and choose better relationships going forward. It was expensive and terrible, there were some legal issues, but it was completely 100% worth it!

I wish that, along with education about our bodies, sex and STDs, we also received education about healthy and unhealthy relationships in school growing up. It would really save a lot of us a lot of heartache, time, and energy.

I know that many folks would want all of these things to be taught to children in the home, by their parents or families, but as we see, many families are dysfunctional and there is no model of a healthy non-abusive adult relationship to observe growing up.

My parents were divorced and then married to other spouses a number of times as I was growing up; eventually there was a sane and healthy parental relationship for role-modeling, but that was long after my formative years in which I observed and internalized a lot of unhealthy behavior, mostly ending in having no healthy adult male role-models to observe. This created an anxious/avoidant attachment style which I re-created for myself more than once before finally doing some hard work on myself and making healthier choices.

I have a sibling who was stalked, courted, and groomed by their abusive narcissist as a freshman in college; the narc saw them on campus & fell in lust at first sight. The NPD stalked them enough to find out what clubs and organizations my sibling was in, and started attending those meetings, after doing enough research to pretend to know more than my sib did about this-that-and-the other. The NPDs knowledge of The Great Mysteries combined with lots of lovebombing[1] caused my sibling to marry young. A few more accidents and traumas, a good bit of emotional[2] , financial[3] , and physical abuse[4] , and my sibling is seemingly trapped for life.

 

Meanwhile, the abuser has gone on to find and have affairs with other college-freshman aged people (and younger). As you say, ‘inexperienced kids’ who are vulnerable to an adult flattering them, making inappropriate sexual comments, love-bombing, giving extravagant gifts, putting them in the middle of lots of exciting drama, etc.

When they are young, most people don’t really even know who they are, let alone have solidified life goals and life experience such that they should be choosing a partner for life. (I did say *most*—there are exceptions to every rule, some folks are very mature, emotionally aware, and have their goals for life set at a young age. That’s OK, too, but it’s rare, in my experience. And groomers/abusers will often flatter a target by telling them that they are 'mature' for their age, so in my opinion, it's a red flag to be  described that way if you are younger than the person courting you.

So, yeah, I think our first romances are likely to be modeled on behavior we’ve seen in movies, on TV, or read about in books, if we don't have good family role models. We are likely to be dramatic, jealous, manipulative, and generally immature in our first love relationships. We are likely to believe that love is supposed to have a lot of drama, it’s supposed to hurt or make us feel anxious, it’s supposed to keep us up all night worrying and crying, fussing, and fighting, and finally lead to fantastic sex. And if we are with a narc, this is the way ‘love’ will always be, since they don’t mature and tend to thrive on conflict and chaos.

With age, experience, maturity, and a good sense of self worth, self esteem and self knowledge, the kinds of crazy behavior and mistreatment we used to tolerate, or even expect from others will no longer seem attractive. We will want a safe partner, clear communication, reasonable discussions, and mutual respect and affection. We don’t want to take on impossible quests, sacrifice our health, happiness, and security, or beat ourselves to death in order to ‘prove our love’ to a person with impossible and ever-shifting standards & demands.

With maturity and self-knowledge, we learn that drama, jealousy, and insecurity are exhausting. We don’t really want to be around people we don’t trust with our hearts. We want to be open and vulnerable and authentic. We want give and take, not just give, give, give, while the other person only takes, takes, takes. We learn to discern the difference between ‘drama’ and ‘passion’ and we come to prefer the depth and longevity of passion over the passing storms of drama.

Footnotes



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evile: (mask)
Why do many of the narcissistic abuse victims on Quora come across like they also have personality disorders? All-or-nothing thinking, victim mentality, self-righteous indignation, and very self-absorbed.




Ever hear the saying “Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas[1] ”?

It’s the same idea when a normal, neurotypical, or un-disordered person spends too much time around disordered sick people. They end up picking up behaviors and patterns of their disordered abuser, as a survival tactic or as a means of trying to get their needs met.

 

In my experience, the narcissist-codependent combo[2] is a pretty common coupling. Both people have disordered personalities and tend toward the cognitive distortions that you mention. Their push-pull is unhealthy and unhappy but probably pretty familiar due to childhood traumas and upbringing, and therefore fairly stable over time.

 

There is also the reality of ‘reactive abuse[3] ’…when a person is pushed into a corner and sees no way out of a situation, they can behave explosively and in a very damaging way. To the outside observer who did not see the abuser’s pushing, poking, nagging, needling, pinching, spitting, slapping, etc. that led their victim to finally blow up, freak out, and dish out some punishment, it could certainly appear that the victim was the abuser.

 

Let me just add here that we are *always* responsible for our own behavior, no matter how ugly, nasty or evil someone else has been to us, no matter whether they started it, did it first, or did it worse….your behavior is always your responsibility. There is no justification for behaving abusively or harming others. It’s very important to differentiate ourselves from narcissists by taking responsibility for our behavior and trying to do better!

Behaving in an abusive, narcissistic fashion can be a learned behavior and it’s always possible that someone who has learned such behavior can also work hard on themselves to un-learn the behavior and do better. It is a process and it can take time. A lot of the people on Quora seem to be using this site as a tool for self understanding and healing, and we are all at a different place in our learning and healing, so, yes, sometimes you’ll see people behaving badly when their base line personality is not actually disordered but very damaged. Over time, it is to be hoped that they will heal and discard these problematic mental habits and behaviors.

In the meantime, it’s helpful to hold people to account for their words and behavior, but not helpful to do so in a blaming, shaming, or name-calling way.

Thanks for your question and your observations. May you grow in health and well-being daily. Take care!

Footnotes

[3] 
 
What is Reactive Abuse? Everything You Need to Know | YANA Mental Health 



=======================

evile: (mask)
What are the top signs that your family is basically a cult centered around a strong personality, a matriarch or a patriarch, with minor narcissists and codependents as supporting cast promulgating the leader's agenda?
  


Good catch! I think you are spot on in your analysis of dysfunctional family dynamics centered around a narcissist authority figure, with the spouse and/or partner as codependent ‘supporting cast’ (AKA “Flying Monkeys”) helping the narcissist (Cult Leader) impose their reality and their will upon the rest of the family members.

I find that the BITE [1] model is useful for examining cult dynamics. The cult leader will attempt to control their followers’ Behavior, Information, Thoughts, and Emotions. Narcissists attempt to do the same to their family members, partners, flying monkeys, etc.

 

Behavior Control

1. Regulate individual’s physical reality

2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates

3. When, how and with whom the member has sex

4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles

5. Regulate diet - food and drink, hunger and/or fasting

6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep

7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence

8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time

9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet

10. Permission required for major decisions

11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors

12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative

13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think

14. Impose rigid rules and regulations

15. Punish disobedience by beating, torture, burning, cutting, rape, or tattooing/branding

16. Threaten harm to family and friends [in the case of N. abuser family model: the narc parent will also threaten to harm, kill, or ‘get rid of’ family pets as punishment, or actually do so.]

17. Force individual to rape or be raped [sexual abuse & incest become family secrets that the victims are made to feel guilty and ashamed of--the narc will use their feelings of shame and secrecy to manipulate them and make sure that they will never trust outsiders or form bonds with people outside the family who might help them escape]

18. Instill dependency and obedience [parental Narc will withhold allowances, not allow children to form normal friendships, will either not allow or put many rules on a child who is trying to engage in normal ‘growing up’ milestones such as getting a learner’s permit, drivers license, car, summer job, their own bank account, etc.]

19. Encourage and engage in corporal punishment [parental Narc will usually be physically abusive as well as emotionally abusive. Or parental Narc will give the job of physical punishment of the children to their spouse, partner, or a hand-picked ‘golden child’ who will comply or else face physical abuse themselves, leading to more guilt, shame, and family secrets]

Information Control

1. Deception:

`a. Deliberately withhold information

b. Distort information to make it more acceptable

c. Systematically lie to the cult member [family member/target/victim]

2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:

a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, other media

b. Critical information

c. Former members [in the case of Narc family: other family members, such as grandparents, aunts or uncles who might provide a life line and a way out of the sick family unit]

d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate

e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking

3. Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines [family abuse, incest, etc. become family secrets that are not to be told to anyone, guilt and shame makes the children feel isolated and untrusting of outsiders]

a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible

b. Control information at different levels and missions within group

c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when

4. Encourage spying on other members

a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member

b. Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership

c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group

5. Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including:

a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media

b. Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources

6. Unethical use of confession

a. Information about 'sins' used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries

b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution

c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories.

Thought Control

1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth

a. Adopting the group's ‘map of reality’ as reality

b. Instill black and white thinking

c. Decide between good vs. evil

d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)

2. Change person’s name and identity

3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words

4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts

5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member

6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created

7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking

b. Chanting (repetition of meaningless  or emotionally charged slogans, mottoes, or buzz-words replace independent, critical thinking--"it is what it is," "let go and let god," "preacher/dad/mom/Rush is always right," )

c. Meditating

d. Praying

e. Speaking in tongues

f. Singing or humming

8. Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism

9. Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed

10. Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful

11. Instill new “map of reality”

Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish

2. Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt

3. Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault

4. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as

a. Identity guilt

b. You are not living up to your potential

c. Your family is deficient [the narcissist spouse will tell the codependent spouse/partner(s) that their own family of origin was the sick and wrong one, that they were ‘not raised right’ and that it is therefore now the narcissist’s job to teach them how to behave]

d. Your past is suspect

e. Your affiliations are unwise

f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish

g. Social guilt

h. Historical guilt

5. Instill fear, such as fear of:

a. Thinking independently

b. The outside world

c. Enemies

d. Losing one’s salvation

e. Leaving or being shunned by the group

f. Other’s disapproval

6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are a horrible sinner

7. Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins

8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority

a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group

b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.

c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends and family

d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll

e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family[2]

 

I find a lot of similarity between a dysfunctional family centered around a narcissist parent and a cult.

  • Focus is on the wants and needs of the cult leader/Narcissist.
  • Their version of reality is the correct version.--They will gaslight and abuse if you disagree about reality or what happened.
  • Spouse/partner(s) and children are not allowed to have needs, thoughts, or feelings that deviate from those of the leader/narcissist/abuser.
  • In many cases, the followers (children, spouse, partners) are treated as tools or toys rather than human beings.
  • The cult leader/Narc is obsessed with power and control, often preoccupied with maintaining a false image of wealth, beauty, success, or other outward appearance of socially acceptable and desirable traits.
  • The cult leader/narcissist uses their followers/victims as props, and takes their resources without consideration.
  • The narc/cult leader/abuser blames outsiders and/or their followers/victims for any negative outcomes—bad things are never a result of their own behavior, but because the followers didn’t believe or pray hard enough, because the victim disobeyed the leader, or because outsiders are persecuting the leader and their followers.
  • No matter what happens, the leader will not accept blame or responsibility. The abuser will use whatever consequences occur as a way to solidify their control of their victim(s) and cut them off from friends, family, external sources of support, information that counteracts the cult leader’s lies, or anything that might provide the victim with a path to freedom.

In all honesty, yes, I see cults and narcissistic abuse as the same thing, the only difference is a matter of scale.




Footnotes

 
========================
 
 
evile: (mask)
Why do a lot of people think narcissists only "take", and never "give"? My narcissist "gave" a lot, but yes, they "took" more.


Narcissist gift-giving is strange and erratic. Eric Miller hit the nail on the head when he highlighted that the narcissist’s gift is actually a transaction.

In my experience, the narc is often lavish in gift-giving in the early ‘love bombing’ [1]stage of the relationship. This is when they hook you in by idealizing you, mirroring your good thoughts and feelings back to you, treating you like you hung the moon and put the stars in the sky. This will be the time that you mention that you enjoy stargazing and they’ll buy you a $500 telescope out of the blue. This will be the time that you feel their gifts are thoughtfully chosen with you in mind. And, yes, they are, BUT: There are strings attached. This is all an act to hook you in, and you will eventually pay for every gift with a piece of your heart, soul, and sanity.

 

A relative of mine was dating a personality disordered woman in college who spent her parents’ credit cards extravagantly on dinners out with all their new college friends, parties, presents, etc. When his interest began to wane due to her possessive and controlling behavior, including ultimatums to choose between his friends & family or her, she bought him a $1200 exotic pet (using her parents’ credit cards). This hooked him back in to the relationship and created a feeling of obligation. Then there was a pregnancy scare, which was the final bar in the cage and they were married. After they became man and wife, her parents ran for the hills, he was presented with the credit card bills she had been running up, and that exotic pet became a very large debt for him to take care of, along with the care and feeding of his abusive, insane new spouse. To this day, the narcissist wife uses the incident of spending $1200 on him as an example of how much she ‘spoils’ him and how generous and wonderful she is or was to her ungrateful wretch of a husband. And, of course, now that they are married, the pet is “mine” and everything he has purchased for the household over the years of marriage is “mine” —she never says “our”—everything is hers, though she does not work consistently, spends more than she makes when she does work, and he is the one who has shouldered the majority of the financial burdens and responsibilities over the years by working steadily outside the home. She says it’s all hers, nothing is his, and nothing is ‘ours’. That $1200 “gift” has cost him his entire life.

When you receive a gift from a narc, it will often be something that the narc themselves wants or likes, rather than a gift suited to your own tastes, or even your own size. The narc only sees the recipient of their gift as an extension of themselves, a canvas to paint their own desires upon, or a mirror to see a version of themselves that they desire.

A woman I know with a narcissistic mother often receives gifts of clothing and jewelry that are exquisite pieces, finely crafted, high-end brands that are much too small and not in styles or colors that she prefers. She knows that her mother expects a great deal of gratitude, thanks and praise for gifting her with these wonderful items. She feels guilty for not enjoying these unsuitable presents. She ends up feeling like a bad person and an unworthy daughter. She feels unable to express a boundary regarding these expensive items, because she knows the narcissist parent will turn it into a fight about how ungrateful she is and how she has hurt her mother by being so mean and thoughtless, though the gifts themselves are unkind and inconsiderate.

When you receive a gift from a narc, look around to see who the narc is performing for. They like to craft a public image of wealth, success, benevolence, kindness, and other traits they do not actually possess. Look for the audience. Is the narc showing off for business associates,  family, or a friend-group? This act of generosity performed for an audience is a little trap for later on; when you finally catch on to the cruelty and want to leave, everyone who saw how generous and kind the narc was in their gifting will likely help the narc gaslight you about who the crazy, bad one is or was. “I saw that ring Narcy gave you at Christmas two years ago; only a man in love would give such a thing, are you sure he was only using you and cheating on you? Are you sure you aren’t just overreacting? I mean, you know how kind and affectionate he is, maybe you didn’t see what you thought you saw when he was hugging and kissing his secretary.” Everyone who sees and believes the Narcissist’s ‘Great and Wonderful ME! Show’ will then become his unwitting flying monkeys, making it difficult for you to believe your own eyes, trust your own perceptions, and do what you need to do to escape and survive.

When you receive a gift from a narc, look for the hidden strings and unspoken expectations. Where is the quid pro quo? They did this one nice thing for you, now here are all the strings for everything they expect from you for the rest of your life to pay them back for their single gift. What? You didn’t know that by accepting this  gift you were agreeing to be their servant for the rest of your life? Well, honey, that’s on you. Now step up and serve that narc!

Footnotes



========================================
evile: (mask)
Do narcissistic mothers break their children intentionally? I don't want to be too hard on her if she didn't realize she was doing it. She's 100% a narcissist and seems to have tried on purpose to ruin her kids but I feel like I can't be mad at her



I really homed in on the last part of your question, “I feel like I can’t be mad at her,”

When a person is raised in an abusive environment, or raised by a personality disordered parent, it is hard to grow up knowing what good boundaries are, or how to express boundaries. You may even reach adulthood without any knowledge at all of how to express yourself if you grew up in an environment where self expression was punished or not allowed. So, feeling like your emotions of anger are not allowed is a normal part of being raised by a narcissist.

Establishing an independent identity and boundaries are not you ‘being hard on her’ or you being cruel to your parent. They are important things that you need to do for yourself in order to be a healthy person.

Narcissists don’t see things like normal people do, and she won’t accept responsibility for her behavior, so trying to hold her accountable for her treatment of you growing up is not going to be an effective way for you to reach closure or come to a place of peace with how you were raised and the parental affection and attachment that you did not receive, that every child wants and needs. It is very hard to reach a place in adulthood where you understand all the terrible ways you were deprived of a normal childhood.

Unfortunately, there’s a saying: “you can’t return to an empty well looking for water,” To me this means that you cannot find peace and healing by going to the person who hurt you. You can only find peace and healing by opening your own well within yourself, and you do this by healing yourself with counseling, prayer (if you find comfort in a religious practice), and educating yourself about the personality disorder and about ways to develop good boundaries and healthy relationships.

Practicing boundaries with a narcissist is going to be difficult, and enforcing boundaries with someone with whom you have not had healthy boundaries is going to be challenging, but it will increase your self confidence and peace of mind when you are able to do so. This is not punishing a person for what has happened in the past, or holding them to account (because narcissists just don’t have the mental or emotional ability to accept that consequences are related to their own behavior), it is not you being “mean”—it  is you telling others what behavior will and will not be accepted and tolerated.

Finally, I want to reassure you that you are not ‘ruined’ no matter what the person raising you did to you, or what she says about you. The fact that you are here, alive, and looking for answers, examining your feelings and looking for ways to work through the harm that was done to you as a child, says to me that you are far from ruined. You are in fact a good, strong person who is working towards wholeness. I find that very admirable and I hope that you will continue on this path. 




=========================================
 
evile: (mask)

I don’t want to be overly dramatic in my answer, but if it helps, think of the NPD as a cult leader and their family, friends, and negative advocates (flying monkeys) as cult followers. The scapegoat is the one who saw the truth and left the cult, therefore the scapegoat must be demonized and hated by the Narcissist and their followers. The Narcissist’s world is fragile and truth would wreck it, so the truth-seer & truth-teller—the scapegoat—is the one who must be painted as the liar.

If the narcissistic family revolves around a parent who is NPD and one of the children is the scapegoat, that child will be portrayed as ‘troubled,’ ‘sinful,’ ‘addicted,’ “ungrateful,’ etc. If the other children want to stay in the narcissist parents good graces, they follow suit. Most of the time they don’t even think about it, it comes naturally to believe and defend their narcissist parent from someone who ‘hurt’ them by being so ‘ungrateful’ and ‘wild’ (in reality: seeing through their lies and calling them out)

The scapegoat can also be the spouse who eventually got tired of the crazy and left, they will get the same smear campaign treatment—”I sacrificed everything for [scapegoat]’s happiness and comfort, to make a home with him/her and our children, I did everything to save our marriage, and s/he left us, children! What a jerk!” bla bla bla, the reality of course being that the scapegoated spouse was the one who worked, sacrificed, contributed labor and finances to the household while the narcissist didn’t work outside the home, didn’t do anything around the house (housework was farmed out to the kids), and was out cheating, or at least spending all day flirting online and making up an extravagant fake life to gather & manipulate followers on social media.

So, basically, the scapegoat doesn’t want to come around because they don’t want anything more to do with the narcissistic abuser, and the other family members are still drinking the narcissist’s kool-ade, so they do not WANT The scapegoat around, because they blame that person for the narc’s problems.

And, finally, the narcissist doesn’t want the scapegoat around because if the scapegoat’s truth telling managed to break down the brainwashing of the narc’s other family members, the narc would be rendered powerless. So the narc makes sure to reinforce the distrust between his/her followers and the scapegoat, so that they never have a chance to communicate honestly and compare their versions of reality to determine the truth about the narcissist. It’s a nice circle of dysfunction: The narcissist gets to play the scapegoat’s lack of filial duty as one more ‘proof’ of their wickedness, and it helps cement their control over the rest of the family who stays and helps feed the narcissist’s “Oh, poor me,” story.

Or, I could just simplify this all by saying why would anyone want to be somewhere they don’t feel welcome, family scapegoat or no? 




==========================================

evile: (mask)
Do the narcissist's parents ever realize they created a monster, or are they too much in denial or too embarrassed?


 The old nature-vs-nurture argument. Are they born bad or are they created? Do the parents see what they did and feel bad, or do they feel the child is completely on their own as far as how they turn out as adults? I think it really depends on the parents. There’s not a universal truth here, only individual lives and how they deal with things.

It’s a complicated situation; I believe some narcissists are created by growing up in a toxic environment. One or more of their adult care givers (parents, grandparents, foster, adoptive, whatever) is a narcissist themselves and due to the toxic family dynamic, one or more of their children is also a narcissist. Adults who are abusive, neglectful, addicted or absent may also trigger the series of malignant circumstances that make a child’s brain and behavior into what we call narcissistic personality disorder.

A child may also be born with significant brain damage, either due to maternal stress, maternal drug abuse, or no reason at all. Their brains are actually missing the structures which would allow them to develop emotionally into mature adults.

If you had a child with a birth defect which caused them to have difficulty relating to others and difficulty expressing themselves emotionally, how would you feel? Would you feel responsible, or would you feel it was the child’s responsibility to learn how to deal with their disability? I think the answer to that really varies with each family and really depends on the circumstances.

Is it the child’s fault that they were born into a toxic family? Is it the child’s fault that they were born with organic brain damage? No. But it is every adult’s responsibility to learn to cope with their early childhood damage and try to learn to function properly in the world.

If a person is ever able to be self-aware enough to realize that their behavior is toxic to themselves & others, they have enough self-awareness to work on it and fix themselves, regardless of what their parents have done or said.

==============

Editing to add:  Posts tagged 'quora' were originally my answers to peoples' questions on quora.com.  They were monetized but I am giving them away for free here. 

If you feel inclined to support my writing, here's my paypal 

And if you prefer to pay it forward, I recommend Safe Place as an excellent place to support.


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