Graaaaargh!

[evile]

longshot14 posted some links that he finds interesting and useful. I checked this one out, since clutter is a constant foe at my house. The top article pushed my buttons like ... a crazy amount. Wow, I can't believe it still pisses me off so much!

I hate to be one of those people who starts a sentence with "My therapist said"...but I gotta take exception to the last part of #3: "Discuss the real problem. If you’re upset that your wife repeatedly leaves her dirty dishes strewn about the living room your frustration has very little to do with dirty dishes. You’re upset because you believe she doesn’t care about the cleanliness level in the living space. So, talk about the real problem and use the dirty dishes as an example of how that lack of caring is expressed."

See, to *me* dirty socks on the coffee table meant "I don't care about this house and I don't care about you. I have no respect for the home we bought together or the household we've made together."

(which, as it turns out, was true. But his slobbyness was not relevant to that fact.)

HOWEVER, according to my REBT therapist, his messyness didn't MEAN anything to my partner, one way or the other. There was no 'underlying issue' in his mind. The coffee table was just a handy place to stash socks when he came home from work. The problem was not his action or his behavior, it was my assumptions and my emotional response to his actions/behavior.

So, step one is not to get to the underlying issue. It's to own your feelings about the behavior, not blame him for the feelings. THEN address the behavior, not your emotional response to the behavior.

And never EVER EVER EVER EVER assume that you know what someone is thinking or feeling because of how they're behaving. You may be right, you may be wrong.

The point is not to assume, but to ASK.

(I still don't have ANY clue how to live happily with someone if your ideas of cleanliness are completely different. My solution was to keep the house and dump the mess-maker. And now that it's MY house, I'm afraid I've become somewhat autocratic in how I keep it. My house, my rules, you don't like it, bye-bye.

Possibly not the best solution, but one I am currently pretty happy with.)

Comments

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

well, getting to the underlying issue, that he had no respect for you or the house (and I'm guessing himself), would have served a purpose, but it wouldn't necessarily have helped the house look nicer... actually, it would. Because it would result in him not being in it, so mess problem SOLVED! yay.

I'm in a mood today; sorry if I've overstepped.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

Well, in one way, I suppose you're right, but look at from another way....how would YOU like it if every time you did (or didn't) do something your partner wanted done, it got turned into "You didn't make biscuits for supper, that means you don't love me, WAAAAAH!"

"You left your socks on the coffee table AGAIN, that means you don't respect me as a person, oh boooohooooo!"

fuck that, dude. SEriously. That is what is called "womany bullshit"

ASK for what you want or need.

If necessary, say how someone's actions, inactions, or behaviors make you feel. NOT that "you made me feel that way, and it's all your fault, you bastard!" but "When you leave socks on the coffee table, it makes me feel you don't respect me or our home."

THEN, if the person persists in continuing to engage in behavior or inaction that you have let be known is offensive, THEN you have a problem, and a situation in which it's quite likely they don't respect you, don't care what you think, feel, or want, and it's time to part ways. One incident is not a deal breaker. A continued pattern of behavior IS.

And it is up to YOU to let it be known what you want, and perhaps why you want it and what their behavior indicates to you of their feelings, and what their behavior leads you to think and feel.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

Or maybe simplify to: everything is not about YOU.

Sometimes the other person just does something because it's the easiest thing for them to do.

No underlying issue, no emotional motivation, just 'damn, I've had a long day, time to take off shoes,"

If you then decide to take it personally and make a big emotional mess about it, rather than state simply and calmly what is needed...it becomes "An Issue".

But everything doesn't have to be "An Issue"

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

everything doesn't have to be "An Issue"

amen to that!

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

agreed, whining is NOT encouraged. The "when you... I feel.." sentences are better, but I think that the correct response from a caring partner to that is, "let's figure out what we can do to fix that", not "yeah, whatever." But then again... I'm in a mood...

[dree.livejournal.com]

i get the whole his brain thinks differently thing but i don't get why, if it was such a simple request and not a big deal, why he didn't adjust the behavior when he could see that it bothered you.

I'm about to read the article but I can totally relate to how you felt and draw the same conclusion in regards to my Dad that you did about your ex.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

For people who are chronic clutterers and hoarders of junk, I have NO doubt there is an underlying issue there, for them, psychologically.

But it doesn't have to be about you and your relationship to them, and it certainly doesn't do anything to solve the problem to take it personally and get offended.

You ask for what you need, and if the other person doesn't or can't give it...well...here's where my model of the Universe falls apart. They say 'no'...then what?

[dree.livejournal.com]

will the article suggests that they find an alternative choir to make up for their inability to accomplish the one that they have cause the other partner to do. Like, I clean up dishes when Joe cooks or I do laundry when Joe does lawn work?

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

you have to decide if it's a dealbreaker.

If it is, then it's time to move on.

If it's not a dealbreaker, then you need to find a way to not have this keep happening. You can decide that you are choosing to pick up the dirty socks because it makes you happier for them to be somewhere else. Or ask him to hire a maid to pick up after him.

[ulitave.livejournal.com]

Hiring a maid will not solve this situation. If one partner feels neglected or unappreciated, a maid will only shift the issue from clean/messy to something else.

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

HIM hiring a maid because he respects his mate and wants to make her happy would do a lot, I think.

HER hiring a maid? no. probably not.

[ulitave.livejournal.com]

Let me tell you from experience, it just doesn't work. If she wants him to do X to make her feel appreciated, him hiring someone to do X will not meet that emotional need. The maid *just* clean the house. The maid cannot clean the house and express her undying love and appreciation.

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

if she wants him to do X because it will make her feel appreciated for him specifically to do it willingly, that's one thing. That's unlikely to get resolved at all.

however, if all she wants is for X to get done and for him to take responsibility for making sure it gets done, then it shouldn't matter how he does it.

you're assuming that him doing X will make her feel appreciated. It might not. It might just make her feel like he respects the space they live in.

Here's an article I saw that rang some bells for me.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

maybe it will for you too.

http://www.drirene.com/controlling_caregiver.htm

(btw, my LJ is for bashing *MY* ex, not yours. :P )

Re: Here's an article I saw that rang some bells for me.

[ulitave.livejournal.com]

lol, I thought I was bashing myself!

[mouser.livejournal.com]

"For people who are chronic clutterers and hoarders of junk, I have NO doubt there is an underlying issue there, for them, psychologically."

There is an underlying issue for everything we DO and DON'T.


I was involved with a woman for a few years who ALWAYS assume the worst case. It took six months for me to realize that was the case, and I don't know NOW long to get her to just ASK what I meant.

If I leave my socks somewhere you don't like, maybe it's because I don't konw it bothers you. (Not the table! Blech!) If you ask, I just MIGHT change that behavior to something you prefer.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

If you ask, I just MIGHT change that behavior to something you prefer.

And you might not. Or you might do it my way for a while and then forget and do things the way you were in the habit of doing them before I showed up and started whining about respect and boundaries and bla de bla.

Nobody wants to be a nag. Nobody wants to BE nagged. I think the best way to handle it is to choose a partner who already lives in a way that you find acceptable. If you're not comfortable with the level of cleanliness in his swingin bachelor garage apartment, there's not much of of a chance he's going to become instantly tidy when y'all move in together.

People don't change all that much. Certainly they don't change from external badgering. If he wanted to quit leaving socks where they didn't belong, it would be because that practice was no longer comfortable or happy-making for HIM, not because I'd been fussing at him about it every single day for 12 years. (In fact, with my ex in particular, the more you fuss at him, the more likely he is to keep doing what you hate, just for spite and stubbornness. You can almost see his unruly inner child sticking out its bottom lip and saying 'you're not the boss of ME!')

[mouser.livejournal.com]

And you might not.

Or you MIGHT.

"The point is not to assume, but to ASK."

I've a friend that would leave clean dishes in the dishwasher, and stack the dirty ones in the sink. When I explained that if he put the clean ones away and stacked the dirty ones in the dishwasher that he wouldn't have the bug problem he had, he changed his approach.

Asking isn't nagging, and it may not have occurred to them the benefits of your way, or that it was bothering you.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

You're right, asking is not nagging.

I don't care to ask more than a few times.

After that, it is not worth it to me to be a shrew about it.

[goudananda.livejournal.com]

The underlying issue that I see and have seen throughout my short time on this planet is 1) people not thinking that small actions have anything to do with a larger picture, a holistic view point if you will and 2) having more STUFF means that I'm safe and secure.

I can be VERY picky about clutter and stuff. The first rule is it's got to be functional. Books can be read, but they're easier to read if on a shelf and somewhat organized. Same thing with music or in my case kitchen utensils. If you have a bookcase full of precious moments...you should be drug out of your house with a chain thru the streets while people throw old fruit at you.

Why didn't he put his socks IN his shoes? Seems to me that it's far nastier to put them on the coffee table.

Often people don't think that that means anything but that's usually cause they just rarely THINK AT ALL. I don't date those people. However I do date someone that has a sense of cleanliness far apart from mine. I notice if the house is dirty as I define it, which is a fairly arbitrary distinction and depends highly on my emotional state. The more diffiicult people and life are on the outside, the more concerned I am about maintaining a clean and clutter free environment.

It's taken lots of effort and discussion to get to the point of asking Andrea if she'd just sweep the living room and kitchen for me. We've discussed it and I work on asking for specific tasks that help me feel better in my environment. If I was with a partner who didn't care about those things, I'd quickly lose my mind.

Most people...deserve a Scarface visit.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

Most people don't think, you're right.

When you live with another person, though, you always have to keep that in mind. You're creating a home environment together. Sometimes it's work. I think as long as it doesnt' feel to one person like they're doing *all* of the work, it's OK.

*LOL* about the Precious Moments, by the way. Those things are hideous. Same for Hummel figurines. ick & ew. I like your utilitarian views.

[made-of-paradox.livejournal.com]

Hm. The Precious Moments collection would correlate with the dysfunctionality of one family I knew when I was growing up....

Precious Moments figurines + tendency toward shrewishness = -- I don't want to think about what that equals at this point.

[bramblekite.livejournal.com]

In my experience, the people who collect dolls or figurines of children are not really in touch with the reality of what children really are and do. They tend to get sort of...miffed? distraught? unpleased? when real life kids are dirty and loud, unlike their big-eyed, pink-cheeked, endlessly adorable dollies.

Some of these people have kids, some don't. Doesn't seem to matter,all of these collector types seem to grow up into fussily tidy juiceless old biddies with bunches of frilly junk in their houses, everything flawlessly in place at all times. I never want my house THAT clean (or that cluttered!)