Jun. 28, 2002
X said
I guess I am not surprised by this anger of yours, after what you
told Asheley about vengeance and revenge being a good thing for
people ( that isn't an exact quote, but it is the message she got
from it). I considered that very inappropriate to tell a child. You
have validated for her any time that she feels, that getting even is
the way to go. ( I considered erasing that because of the bithchyness
of the remark and decided against it as it is a good example in my
opinion).
=======================
And I did not respond to it in the least. I don't like children, I
think Ashley and Forest are dreadful brats, and it's not my fucking
responsibility to raise them or teach them right from wrong. She said
that to get a reaction out of me, and she will not get one. It was
kitchen sink-y in the extreme. However, I did take it to the yahoo
pagan message lists, under pagan parenting. Here's that:
================================================
open mouth, insert foot
by: e
(32/F/Austin, TX) 06/27/02 12:55 pm
Msg: 7 of 13
Well, I did it again. I should just stay home and not talk to anyone
ever again.
Went to a summer solstice gathering with a friend, her daughter, and
her daughter's friend, A, who is VERY curious about Wicca/paganism.
After the ceremony, I dropped them back off, and my friend said how
cool it was for me to take them, and how valuable it was for little A
to meet someone who knows about this stuff and can show her what's
what.
A asked me if I was Wiccan, and I said no, because most of the
Wiccan's I know tend to see things in rosy terms, don't believe that
nature can be dangerous, and don't believe in defending themselves
against abuse. Since I am not a doormat and I know that Nature has
its share of danger, predator & prey (not EVIL, I clarified, but
Mother Earth is not always this wonderful good harmless entity).
A has taken my "nature isn't always good and people shouldn't put up
with bad behavior from others in the name of peace and goodness" and
apparently turned it into justification to have revenge on anyone who
she feels has wronged her.
My friend is blaming me for this, but...this is a kid who was
apparently raised by parents who give her THINGS instead of love and
discipline, and I don't think I'm much to blame for her twisted world
view. But I'm in trouble with my friend for 'telling A that vengeance
is good'.
WHAT THE FUCK EVER.
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: palintear (M/Va) 06/27/02
01:36 pm
Msg: 8 of 13
Eek,
I would like to give my two cents on this.
First,I agree that nature has its share of danger,but if you
understand it then the danger is not great.No mother nature is not
harmless,but she is good and wornderful.I do not call myself a wiccan
either though I do have a great respect for them and their beliefs.
Second,when dealing with a child you must be careful how you present
concepts to them.They tend to be quite literal and dont all ways
think out their actions,they just react.
If you interduce someone young to wicca,witchcraft,paganism in any
form,while they dont have to be a doormat you do have to convey to
them that revenge is not self defence.Defending your self and/or
beliefs is OK,but seeking revenge on others is counter
productive.Hanging on to negative feelings will not help your
personal growth and getting revenge will not make anything in your
life better.
Palin
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: DragonEyes67
(34/F/Florida) 06/27/02 02:32 pm
Msg: 9 of 13
Oh man.... E... I have been there. I'm sorry you got stuck in that
bog. I'm not sure why your friend would be so pissed off at you
though. I have a friend who insists that the world is out to get her
and reacts to everything that way. My darling daughter decided to ask
her a few questions about Wicca and got a similar (but more twisted)
answer to the one you gave. I personally feel that if what you
believe does not jive with what I want my child believing it is my
responsibility to re-direct her down a different path. My friend
seems to have taken the "Nature can be mean" concept and twisted it
so that she can do the revenge thing on those who she thinks have
slighted her. While I also believe in the predator/prey concept I
have had to temper my daughters outlook with logic and reason. This
is my responsibility, not my friends and just because she voiced her
opinion to my child does not mean I'm going to be mad at her or stop
being her friend.
Oh well... that's just me. I hope all works out for you.
BB
DE
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: bgruagach (35/M/Glendale,
AZ) 06/27/02 02:44 pm
Msg: 10 of 13
Just a warning, too.
It is rarely a wise idea to discuss Wicca or "alternative" religious
paths with a child if you don't have explicit consent from at least
one of the kid's parents. Even if the kid is a "friend of your kid."
People have gotten in a lot of trouble for doing things like that.
If a kid asks you about an "alternative" religion and you don't have
explicit consent to talk about them about it, then it's better to
suggest they ask their parents about it, or visit the public library.
(I'm not sure it's wise to even suggest a book they look for - but
you could buy a copy of a book you would recommend, and donate it to
the library!)
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: e
(32/F/Austin, TX) 06/27/02 03:25 pm
Msg: 11 of 13
Apparently this kid has been interested in paganism for some time,
and my friend got the mom's permission in advance to bring her to a
pagan ritual. Then my friend called me and asked when the next one
was and could they come with me? Dumbass me said "sure, why not?"
The child's actual parents don't really seem to care much about
interacting with her as a person. They take her places and buy her
things, and they don't ask "Gee, A, why do you like this pentagram
necklace and want me to buy it for you?" They just buy it and let her
go her way and do her thing. They are wonderful enlightened modern
parents who know that discipline and prying into the kid's private
life can just make a preteen so darn mad.
I am slowly but surely learning that the only way to get along in
this world is smile and nod, smile and nod, smile and nod.
I am apparently not allowed to have opinions or be honest, even if
someone sits there and says "I value honesty, please give me your
opinion"
I'll figure it out someday. Maybe it will take a lobotomy and removal
of my larynx, but I will stop getting in trouble with people I love
and care about.
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: bgruagach (35/M/Glendale,
AZ) 06/27/02 06:24 pm
Msg: 12 of 13
eekatfreaksdotnet wrote:
"The child's actual parents don't really seem to care much about
interacting with her as a person. They take her places and buy her
things, and they don't ask "Gee, A, why do you like this pentagram
necklace and want me to buy it for you?" They just buy it and let her
go her way and do her thing. They are wonderful enlightened modern
parents who know that discipline and prying into the kid's private
life can just make a preteen so darn mad. "
Just curious - did either you or your friend try to talk to this
kid's parents to let them know their daughter is into "revenge"?
I'd understand if you just want to let the whole thing drop, but
talking to the parents could help clear it up. Personally, I'd prefer
to act as if the parents would react intelligently (giving them the
chance to change your poor impression of them).
On the other hand, it makes a lot of sense to let your friend deal
with it, since your friend seems to be the one that deals with this
kid on a regular basis.
Whether you're Wiccan or not, I think this is an interesting example
of what "Harm none, do what you will" involves. Telling a kid
something might seem harmless, unless what you're telling them might
be taken the wrong way by the kid or someone else. When you talk to
kids, especially someone else's kids, you always have to pick
carefully what you say and what you hold back. It doesn't matter what
the topic is.
Kids don't usually have the experience to take what others say with a
grain of salt, or know how to put it in context. Heck, there are
plenty of adults who don't either!
It is a very brave and wise person who can recognize when they've
made a mistake, learn from it, and move on with grace.
Re: open mouth, insert foot
by: destinyz_rhyme
(37/F/ubiquitous) 06/27/02 08:38 pm
Msg: 13 of 13
E long time no see (on my part). re "I'll figure it out someday. Maybe
it will take a lobotomy and removal of my larynx, but I will stop
getting in trouble with people I love and care about."
LOL & my sympathies...
hmmm, might I say, this won't necessarily occur & U don't necessarily
NEED for it to!
U sound much like myself in Ur interactions w/friends (not
specifically re: the topic @ hand, but generally speaking).
I've found in the last few years, its more to do w/the friends I
have, than w/my actions & words!
having a NEW set of FRIENDS is what opened my eyes to this fact :)
be Urself. U seem generous & consciencious (bad day for spelling)
enough in this specific *episode* - Your friend doesn't seem to be
taking any responsibility for introducing U to *A* or discussing the
matter w/her or her family.
NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
the Problem is HERS
Ur one day/event interaction w/this A child,
DID NOT
I repeat, DID NOT affect her approach/outlook/interaction to the
world that drastically!
It highly likely, it was her OUTLOOK & way of behaving ALL ALONG.
maybe she is now just being more verbal about it, to your friends
dismay.
well, that's my 2p on the matter, anyhow.
this speaking from my *memory* as a youth/young adult & how NOT
influenced others, I even l00ked up to & admired, affected me.
Please, give me a break!
she's had a life X, however short, to create & have impacted her
vision of it.
You did NOT do anything reprehensible enough to effect/affect her so
drastically. LOL :P
best wishes that Your *friendship* recovers...
IF
you really want it to. < ? >
anyway, its something for you to think on.
regardless, I enjoy hearing you rant & rave about it all :)
~DestinyZ_rhyme~
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