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Aug. 9th, 2012 07:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
evilehttp://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/
This blog entry has a LOT of good points. a LOT.
I am not trying to dismiss those points by trying to create a distinction between "how we deal with predators as a formal entity with elected leadership and bylaws" and "how we deal with predators when they are friends of friends in informal group settings,"
So let me try again to compare these apples and oranges:
1) You’re at a convention. You’re at work. You’re at an SCA or Amtgard or Civil War Re-Enactors' event. You’re camping at the renaissance festival. You’re attending a church ‘shut in’. You’re at the comic book store. Someone harasses you. Someone touches you without your permission. Someone says vulgar or threatening things to or about you. Someone assaults you. There are people who are there to help. There is a boss, a store owner board of directors, chairperson, ‘autocrat’, king/queen, event security. There are policies and procedures for everyone involved to follow and utilize to address the incident.
2) You have a group of friends. A friend of a friend harasses you. A friend of a friend touches you without your permission. A friend of a friend makes verbal threats against your person, life, or livelihood. A friend of a friend assaults you. At that point, you have police and you have your word against theirs, and you have a choice about how far you want or need to go in order to make yourself feel safe.
As a friend of many strange and diverse people, I am NEVER going to take the word of another person about who I should or should not be friends with. I am NEVER going to listen to one stranger tell me another stranger is toxic and evil and follow that person's directive to "WARN ALL YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT ______!!!" Because, seriously, I don't want to live in a world where one person can say "Bramblekite is toxic and evil, avoid her," and have everyone that they say that to BELIEVE them and ACT on it without thinking or questioning or finding out for themselves. And I am NEVER going to entrust my health, well being, or safety to anyone but ME, either. I'm glad of laws and law enforcement. I'm glad for formal groups with formal leadership. But the buck stops right here, with me. And I'm glad of it.
Personal aside, tangent. I have never been sexually assaulted by anyone in any of my friends or hobby groups. But I have friends whose friends have posted online and said in RL that they think I 'need killin’, that they could or should ‘choke a bitch’ (me), that I need a ‘boot to the head’. I have friends whose friend or friends have contacted my employer to lodge complaints about me and try and have me fired. I have heard “So and so was just venting. S/hes a coward, nothing will REALLY happen. Oh, can’t you take a joke? Those are just figures of speech.” I have been told that these colorful expressions of speech against my life, livelihood, and person are “not real threats” and I shouldn’t take so and so seriously.
There is NO way, legally or socially, or any other recourse I have to make our mutual friends stop being friends with that person or stop inviting that person to their parties or make that person stop showing up to public gatherings.
When dealing with someone who has been toxic and abusive to you in the personal sphere, you can tell those closest to you, who are most likely to hear you out and not assume you’re just gossiping, trash talking, or creating drama.
You can avoid that person at parties and gatherings. Or you can just stop showing up. (Which usually tends to make you look like the guilty party in whatever exchange. See Trollspotting)
But is “looking bad” an adequate tradeoff for feeling safe and not having to see the person who ‘joked’ or ‘vented’ or ‘just a figure of speech’-ed about how they wanted to KILL YOU?
Sometimes I feel that yes it is, and sometimes I am angry and sad that I miss out on parties and friends because I don’t want to be around someone who has stated that s/he WANTS ME DEAD.
This isn’t a problem for the group of friends to solve. It's between me and the person or persons. I neither expect nor require my friends to stand up for me. Time will show what’s what and who’s who. In the meantime, I keep myself safe, and spend time with friends I trust and *not* their friends, the charming individuals who have oh-so-HILARIOUSLY threatened my life, person, or livelihood.
If that makes me a stupid drama queen coward, so what. The people who label me that aren’t really my friends and I shouldn’t waste time on what they think, anyway.
This blog entry has a LOT of good points. a LOT.
I am not trying to dismiss those points by trying to create a distinction between "how we deal with predators as a formal entity with elected leadership and bylaws" and "how we deal with predators when they are friends of friends in informal group settings,"
So let me try again to compare these apples and oranges:
1) You’re at a convention. You’re at work. You’re at an SCA or Amtgard or Civil War Re-Enactors' event. You’re camping at the renaissance festival. You’re attending a church ‘shut in’. You’re at the comic book store. Someone harasses you. Someone touches you without your permission. Someone says vulgar or threatening things to or about you. Someone assaults you. There are people who are there to help. There is a boss, a store owner board of directors, chairperson, ‘autocrat’, king/queen, event security. There are policies and procedures for everyone involved to follow and utilize to address the incident.
2) You have a group of friends. A friend of a friend harasses you. A friend of a friend touches you without your permission. A friend of a friend makes verbal threats against your person, life, or livelihood. A friend of a friend assaults you. At that point, you have police and you have your word against theirs, and you have a choice about how far you want or need to go in order to make yourself feel safe.
As a friend of many strange and diverse people, I am NEVER going to take the word of another person about who I should or should not be friends with. I am NEVER going to listen to one stranger tell me another stranger is toxic and evil and follow that person's directive to "WARN ALL YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT ______!!!" Because, seriously, I don't want to live in a world where one person can say "Bramblekite is toxic and evil, avoid her," and have everyone that they say that to BELIEVE them and ACT on it without thinking or questioning or finding out for themselves. And I am NEVER going to entrust my health, well being, or safety to anyone but ME, either. I'm glad of laws and law enforcement. I'm glad for formal groups with formal leadership. But the buck stops right here, with me. And I'm glad of it.
Personal aside, tangent. I have never been sexually assaulted by anyone in any of my friends or hobby groups. But I have friends whose friends have posted online and said in RL that they think I 'need killin’, that they could or should ‘choke a bitch’ (me), that I need a ‘boot to the head’. I have friends whose friend or friends have contacted my employer to lodge complaints about me and try and have me fired. I have heard “So and so was just venting. S/hes a coward, nothing will REALLY happen. Oh, can’t you take a joke? Those are just figures of speech.” I have been told that these colorful expressions of speech against my life, livelihood, and person are “not real threats” and I shouldn’t take so and so seriously.
There is NO way, legally or socially, or any other recourse I have to make our mutual friends stop being friends with that person or stop inviting that person to their parties or make that person stop showing up to public gatherings.
When dealing with someone who has been toxic and abusive to you in the personal sphere, you can tell those closest to you, who are most likely to hear you out and not assume you’re just gossiping, trash talking, or creating drama.
You can avoid that person at parties and gatherings. Or you can just stop showing up. (Which usually tends to make you look like the guilty party in whatever exchange. See Trollspotting)
But is “looking bad” an adequate tradeoff for feeling safe and not having to see the person who ‘joked’ or ‘vented’ or ‘just a figure of speech’-ed about how they wanted to KILL YOU?
Sometimes I feel that yes it is, and sometimes I am angry and sad that I miss out on parties and friends because I don’t want to be around someone who has stated that s/he WANTS ME DEAD.
This isn’t a problem for the group of friends to solve. It's between me and the person or persons. I neither expect nor require my friends to stand up for me. Time will show what’s what and who’s who. In the meantime, I keep myself safe, and spend time with friends I trust and *not* their friends, the charming individuals who have oh-so-HILARIOUSLY threatened my life, person, or livelihood.
If that makes me a stupid drama queen coward, so what. The people who label me that aren’t really my friends and I shouldn’t waste time on what they think, anyway.
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no subject
Date: 2012-08-10 12:21 am (UTC)It's not my place or my job to tell them "Stop hanging out with that user/abuser"
but I can sure as hell keep MYSELF away from the user/abusers of this world :)
no subject
Date: 2012-08-10 04:20 am (UTC)Well, what, exactly, is it that am I expected to do?
no subject
Date: 2012-08-10 01:08 pm (UTC)Your presence makes it so that I can't guarantee the safety of my household? Goodbye.
This is why I use evite
Date: 2012-08-12 12:21 am (UTC)Re: This is why I use evite
Date: 2012-08-12 02:12 am (UTC)I guess it makes them feel "safe" that there is no possible way for a blocked person to see anything they post, ever. I know that Facebook has a 'bug' or a 'feature' in one can occasionally see things a friend has posted to the wall of someone who is not a friend.
OTOH, it makes *me* feel less safe responding to a party invite when I know there are mutual friends, and I feel like a drama whore if I ask someone else to check the facebook invitation for Person A, who has blocked me, so that I can make a better-informed decision about whether or not to attend a gathering.
These days, I mostly just don't go anywhere or hang out with anyone anymore. Not worth the bad feelings.
Then again, I'm pondering this whole "safe" thing and what people think it means, want it to mean, or what.
With one or two possible exceptions of people who are batshit insane and really MIGHT try to attack me right there in front of god and everyone, what is "person I don't feel safe around" going to DO to me, exactly, at a public gathering or a gathering of mutual friends? Oh, boo hoo, they might shun me. Or they might make a snarky comment. They might give me a dirty look. I'll be devastated. (hell, come to think of it, I HAVE been 'snarked' at a party, and I didn't die or even feel particularly sad about it, and afterwards it seemed that the people who noticed the comment were just annoyed by Snarky's attitude problem, because it was rude and uncalled for. I happened to respond appropriately, for once, by ignoring the snark and going on with my happy party self, so go me.)
After all the talk of our group 'harboring predators' I'm really looking harder at the concept of "feeling safe" or "being safe" and what that actually might mean. I'm not coming up with much. In the case of dinners, they're ALL at public places. There are employees, there may be security cameras, and in some places there are even security people on premises. Furthermore, there are dozens of potential witnesses for anything that someone might try to do to someone else. From a realistic, rational point of view, even the most socially retarded gropey mc grabberson in the world is NOT going to pull that shit in a room full of people. Is s/he??? So what are people afraid of?
And I'm still befucked if I can figure out why I am "part of the problem" and having no clue as to what I am expected to do or not do in a situation in which a friend or acquaintance is accused of doing something unsafe, unethical, or illegal. I am not the boss of anything. I am not the police. I have no direct knowledge of the incident. So...again....what exactly is it that I should be doing or not doing? ugh. This is crazy-making. Just crazy.
Also...
Date: 2012-08-12 12:25 am (UTC)Re: Also...
Date: 2012-08-12 02:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-08-12 06:31 pm (UTC)I saw a phrase I liked somewhere in LJ, something like "Happy healthy discussion rather than talking on eggshells"....but seems like there are people who are far too fragile or easily triggered or...something...that you just can't talk about this at all. they are in such a place of pain and outrage, that any discussion is viewed as an 'attack' and the person trying to have the discussion is 'evil' and 'wrong' and immediately shut out and shut down. I don't feel that's the healthiest thing. But you can't make people talk to you who don't want to talk to you, so...
I know that I, personally, am often disgusted and horrified by 'funny' scenes of domestic violence, like hte one in 'kung fu hustle' (I think?) whereas people I like and respect and otherwise admire found it HILARIOUS. Are they 'part of the problem' and to be shunned? Personally, I found it better to say that it disturbed me, and why it disturbed me, and leave it at that. Provide some food for thought without calling anyone names or shutting them down.
and then there are times when you're out in public and see a woman delivering a spectacular verbal beat-down against a spouse or child...do you say something? do you not say something? Do you call the cops? What do you do or not-do so as not to be 'part of the problem'? Or is it really, actually Ok for a woman to do that but not ok for a man to do/say things like that to his kids or partner? why?