Discussion: Respect and Boundaries
Jan. 24th, 2008 12:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
evileMy friend ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
freyapax came up with some interesting discussion questions that I'd actually love to see or hear discussed 'live' perhaps at something like a Poly 101 or a meeting at the Human Potential Center.
Where things seem to get murky for me is in these two words: "respect" and "boundaries"
Respect seems to be a word that gets used a lot and seems to have a lot of definitions or assumptions built-in by others that seem odd to me.
The wierdest one I can think of is the street "respect" in which you can shoot someone in the face if they "disrespect" you ... which all seems to be totally subjective, having to do with body language, eye contact, articles of clothing worn & perhaps tone of voice or words used in addressing the 'disrespected' party.
There is also the Mafia sort of "respect" which is I think where the ghetto kids got their idea from. This type of 'respect' seems to have more to do with fear and obedience and hierarchy than humans relating to one another as equals.
While I think of this as a criminal phenomenon, I begin to suspect that some people I know actually adhere more to this (to me) very odd definition of 'respect' than to any others I can come up with.
Wikipedia does a good job of coming closer to what I see as "respect".
Basically good faith that the other person is behaving and speaking authentically as themselves. I can agree or disagree with the behavior, opinions, level of knowledge or expertise claimed by that person, but still respect them.
Respect is not, IMHO, a matter of nodding and smiling approvingly at whatever happens. It's not a matter of unwavering loyalty and agreement. it's a matter of saying "You're an adult, you can do and say and think whatever you like. That doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with you."
When behavior and words often don't match, I begin to lose respect. [edit] And maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should see respect more as a "namaste"...you are a human being with feelings, thoughts, and desires, same as me. You are a face of the Divine, same as me. HM!]
Boundaries are a lot stickier. I am pretty sure I still have an imperfect understanding, mostly brought about by failing to identify my emotional state or true desire at any given time, or being unable to relate external events & behavior of others to my own thoughts and feelings.
I am not so good at recognizing or enforcing my own boundaries. But, here is my understanding, flawed as it may be:
Boundaries are not about telling someone "You can't do that"...boundaries are about saying "I don't want to be here if you're doing that." "I won't help you do that." "I won't do that for you." and the like.
Boundaries are something still pretty new to me. I think I am pretty good at respecting others' boundaries, especially when they are clearly stated "I" messages. (and, FWIW, I don't think that putting up with behavior you don't like and then writing about it in LJ after the fact & saying "That's my boundary" is really the same thing as actually stating a boundary)
And, yes, you can lose friends and loved ones by stating & enforcing boundaries.
For example: "I would like you to follow thru on your commitments to me," was a boundary I recently expressed to someone. She would show up regularly for some ongoing thing we had decided to do together and then eventually quit showing up because she found something else to do instead. I felt like that person didn't like me because she decided not to do girls nights anymore. She didn't come to my house when I invited folks over. I needed more time with her in order for me to feel like we were friends, that she valued our friendship.--[mostly] "I" statements. All valid feelings.
The response? None. No words, no change in behavior, no indication that my feelings or wants are valid, nothing.
{edit: Ok, let me be fair. There was actually a response. Just not one I could work with.
1) how "interesting" it was to see others expectations. [like I was a creature in a petri dish. Or some grubby peasant holding up a bowl to her carriage as it passed by my hovel. How fucking condescending.]
2) "Thank you for sharing. I don't see it that way." and nothing further.
I can't build a respectful relationship based on that sort of non-response, sorry. You think you're better than me and that I'm wrong. Whereas your POV is entirely correct, valid and perfect. You are perfect, I am garbage. I get it. OK. Bye.}
Therefore, I cut ties.
It's very possible I did not state my needs and feelings clearly enough. It's very possible I did not voice my boundaries until I was already too upset to talk reasonably with them. It's also likely that I did not deliver the boundary with a part 4 (see below) I did not say:
If you--" "I will---" or "If you continue this behavior"
To me, that still feels like emotional blackmail: "give me what I want or I quit." but intellectually I do understand it. Just not so good at putting into practice yet. And needing to work harder on 'all or nothing' thinking.
==============================================
here are some signs of unhealthy boundaries:
We suggest going down this list twice. First thinking of yourself, and then as it may apply to the person in your life. . . .
Signs of Unhealthy Boundaries
* Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want.
* Acting on first sexual impulse.
* Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you.
* Being overwhelmed by a person - preoccupied.
* Being sexual for partner, not self.
* Believing other can anticipate your needs.
* Expecting others to fill your needs automatically.
* Falling apart so someone will take care of you.
* Falling in love with a new acquaintance.
* Falling in love with anyone who reaches out.
* Food abuse.
* Giving as much as you can give for the sake of giving.
* Going against personal values or rights to please others.
* Letting others define you.
* Letting others describe your reality.
* Letting others direct your life.
* Not noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries.
* Not noticing or caring when someone invades your boundaries.
* Self abuse.
* Sexual and physical abuse.
* Taking as much as you can get for the sake of getting.
* Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting.
* Telling all.
* Touching a person without asking.
================================================
Personal Boundaries
"Setting boundaries is not a more sophisticated way of manipulation - although some people will say they are setting boundaries, when in fact they are attempting to manipulate. The difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulating is: when we set a boundary we let go of the outcome.
So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:
When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . . . .
The fourth part of this formula is setting the boundary. I will get to that in a moment. The first three parts of the formula are a very important part of taking responsibility for our self - an important step in learning to define ourselves as separate in a healthy way.
There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what we will do to defend that boundary.
If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.
If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
freyapax came up with some interesting discussion questions that I'd actually love to see or hear discussed 'live' perhaps at something like a Poly 101 or a meeting at the Human Potential Center.Where things seem to get murky for me is in these two words: "respect" and "boundaries"
Respect seems to be a word that gets used a lot and seems to have a lot of definitions or assumptions built-in by others that seem odd to me.
The wierdest one I can think of is the street "respect" in which you can shoot someone in the face if they "disrespect" you ... which all seems to be totally subjective, having to do with body language, eye contact, articles of clothing worn & perhaps tone of voice or words used in addressing the 'disrespected' party.
There is also the Mafia sort of "respect" which is I think where the ghetto kids got their idea from. This type of 'respect' seems to have more to do with fear and obedience and hierarchy than humans relating to one another as equals.
While I think of this as a criminal phenomenon, I begin to suspect that some people I know actually adhere more to this (to me) very odd definition of 'respect' than to any others I can come up with.
Wikipedia does a good job of coming closer to what I see as "respect".
Basically good faith that the other person is behaving and speaking authentically as themselves. I can agree or disagree with the behavior, opinions, level of knowledge or expertise claimed by that person, but still respect them.
Respect is not, IMHO, a matter of nodding and smiling approvingly at whatever happens. It's not a matter of unwavering loyalty and agreement. it's a matter of saying "You're an adult, you can do and say and think whatever you like. That doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with you."
When behavior and words often don't match, I begin to lose respect. [edit] And maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should see respect more as a "namaste"...you are a human being with feelings, thoughts, and desires, same as me. You are a face of the Divine, same as me. HM!]
Boundaries are a lot stickier. I am pretty sure I still have an imperfect understanding, mostly brought about by failing to identify my emotional state or true desire at any given time, or being unable to relate external events & behavior of others to my own thoughts and feelings.
I am not so good at recognizing or enforcing my own boundaries. But, here is my understanding, flawed as it may be:
Boundaries are not about telling someone "You can't do that"...boundaries are about saying "I don't want to be here if you're doing that." "I won't help you do that." "I won't do that for you." and the like.
Boundaries are something still pretty new to me. I think I am pretty good at respecting others' boundaries, especially when they are clearly stated "I" messages. (and, FWIW, I don't think that putting up with behavior you don't like and then writing about it in LJ after the fact & saying "That's my boundary" is really the same thing as actually stating a boundary)
And, yes, you can lose friends and loved ones by stating & enforcing boundaries.
For example: "I would like you to follow thru on your commitments to me," was a boundary I recently expressed to someone. She would show up regularly for some ongoing thing we had decided to do together and then eventually quit showing up because she found something else to do instead. I felt like that person didn't like me because she decided not to do girls nights anymore. She didn't come to my house when I invited folks over. I needed more time with her in order for me to feel like we were friends, that she valued our friendship.--[mostly] "I" statements. All valid feelings.
The response? None. No words, no change in behavior, no indication that my feelings or wants are valid, nothing.
{edit: Ok, let me be fair. There was actually a response. Just not one I could work with.
1) how "interesting" it was to see others expectations. [like I was a creature in a petri dish. Or some grubby peasant holding up a bowl to her carriage as it passed by my hovel. How fucking condescending.]
2) "Thank you for sharing. I don't see it that way." and nothing further.
I can't build a respectful relationship based on that sort of non-response, sorry. You think you're better than me and that I'm wrong. Whereas your POV is entirely correct, valid and perfect. You are perfect, I am garbage. I get it. OK. Bye.}
Therefore, I cut ties.
It's very possible I did not state my needs and feelings clearly enough. It's very possible I did not voice my boundaries until I was already too upset to talk reasonably with them. It's also likely that I did not deliver the boundary with a part 4 (see below) I did not say:
If you--" "I will---" or "If you continue this behavior"
To me, that still feels like emotional blackmail: "give me what I want or I quit." but intellectually I do understand it. Just not so good at putting into practice yet. And needing to work harder on 'all or nothing' thinking.
==============================================
here are some signs of unhealthy boundaries:
We suggest going down this list twice. First thinking of yourself, and then as it may apply to the person in your life. . . .
Signs of Unhealthy Boundaries
* Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want.
* Acting on first sexual impulse.
* Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you.
* Being overwhelmed by a person - preoccupied.
* Being sexual for partner, not self.
* Believing other can anticipate your needs.
* Expecting others to fill your needs automatically.
* Falling apart so someone will take care of you.
* Falling in love with a new acquaintance.
* Falling in love with anyone who reaches out.
* Food abuse.
* Giving as much as you can give for the sake of giving.
* Going against personal values or rights to please others.
* Letting others define you.
* Letting others describe your reality.
* Letting others direct your life.
* Not noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries.
* Not noticing or caring when someone invades your boundaries.
* Self abuse.
* Sexual and physical abuse.
* Taking as much as you can get for the sake of getting.
* Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting.
* Telling all.
* Touching a person without asking.
================================================
Personal Boundaries
"Setting boundaries is not a more sophisticated way of manipulation - although some people will say they are setting boundaries, when in fact they are attempting to manipulate. The difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulating is: when we set a boundary we let go of the outcome.
So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:
When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . . . .
The fourth part of this formula is setting the boundary. I will get to that in a moment. The first three parts of the formula are a very important part of taking responsibility for our self - an important step in learning to define ourselves as separate in a healthy way.
There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what we will do to defend that boundary.
If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.
If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
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no subject
Date: 2008-01-24 07:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-24 07:41 pm (UTC)I just found myself thinking and posting so much on it in your LJ, I decided it'd be better to do a post here instead of hijacking yours :P