Discussion: Respect and Boundaries
Jan. 24th, 2008 12:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
evileMy friend ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
freyapax came up with some interesting discussion questions that I'd actually love to see or hear discussed 'live' perhaps at something like a Poly 101 or a meeting at the Human Potential Center.
Where things seem to get murky for me is in these two words: "respect" and "boundaries"
Respect seems to be a word that gets used a lot and seems to have a lot of definitions or assumptions built-in by others that seem odd to me.
The wierdest one I can think of is the street "respect" in which you can shoot someone in the face if they "disrespect" you ... which all seems to be totally subjective, having to do with body language, eye contact, articles of clothing worn & perhaps tone of voice or words used in addressing the 'disrespected' party.
There is also the Mafia sort of "respect" which is I think where the ghetto kids got their idea from. This type of 'respect' seems to have more to do with fear and obedience and hierarchy than humans relating to one another as equals.
While I think of this as a criminal phenomenon, I begin to suspect that some people I know actually adhere more to this (to me) very odd definition of 'respect' than to any others I can come up with.
Wikipedia does a good job of coming closer to what I see as "respect".
Basically good faith that the other person is behaving and speaking authentically as themselves. I can agree or disagree with the behavior, opinions, level of knowledge or expertise claimed by that person, but still respect them.
Respect is not, IMHO, a matter of nodding and smiling approvingly at whatever happens. It's not a matter of unwavering loyalty and agreement. it's a matter of saying "You're an adult, you can do and say and think whatever you like. That doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with you."
When behavior and words often don't match, I begin to lose respect. [edit] And maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should see respect more as a "namaste"...you are a human being with feelings, thoughts, and desires, same as me. You are a face of the Divine, same as me. HM!]
Boundaries are a lot stickier. I am pretty sure I still have an imperfect understanding, mostly brought about by failing to identify my emotional state or true desire at any given time, or being unable to relate external events & behavior of others to my own thoughts and feelings.
I am not so good at recognizing or enforcing my own boundaries. But, here is my understanding, flawed as it may be:
Boundaries are not about telling someone "You can't do that"...boundaries are about saying "I don't want to be here if you're doing that." "I won't help you do that." "I won't do that for you." and the like.
Boundaries are something still pretty new to me. I think I am pretty good at respecting others' boundaries, especially when they are clearly stated "I" messages. (and, FWIW, I don't think that putting up with behavior you don't like and then writing about it in LJ after the fact & saying "That's my boundary" is really the same thing as actually stating a boundary)
And, yes, you can lose friends and loved ones by stating & enforcing boundaries.
For example: "I would like you to follow thru on your commitments to me," was a boundary I recently expressed to someone. She would show up regularly for some ongoing thing we had decided to do together and then eventually quit showing up because she found something else to do instead. I felt like that person didn't like me because she decided not to do girls nights anymore. She didn't come to my house when I invited folks over. I needed more time with her in order for me to feel like we were friends, that she valued our friendship.--[mostly] "I" statements. All valid feelings.
The response? None. No words, no change in behavior, no indication that my feelings or wants are valid, nothing.
{edit: Ok, let me be fair. There was actually a response. Just not one I could work with.
1) how "interesting" it was to see others expectations. [like I was a creature in a petri dish. Or some grubby peasant holding up a bowl to her carriage as it passed by my hovel. How fucking condescending.]
2) "Thank you for sharing. I don't see it that way." and nothing further.
I can't build a respectful relationship based on that sort of non-response, sorry. You think you're better than me and that I'm wrong. Whereas your POV is entirely correct, valid and perfect. You are perfect, I am garbage. I get it. OK. Bye.}
Therefore, I cut ties.
It's very possible I did not state my needs and feelings clearly enough. It's very possible I did not voice my boundaries until I was already too upset to talk reasonably with them. It's also likely that I did not deliver the boundary with a part 4 (see below) I did not say:
If you--" "I will---" or "If you continue this behavior"
To me, that still feels like emotional blackmail: "give me what I want or I quit." but intellectually I do understand it. Just not so good at putting into practice yet. And needing to work harder on 'all or nothing' thinking.
==============================================
here are some signs of unhealthy boundaries:
We suggest going down this list twice. First thinking of yourself, and then as it may apply to the person in your life. . . .
Signs of Unhealthy Boundaries
* Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want.
* Acting on first sexual impulse.
* Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you.
* Being overwhelmed by a person - preoccupied.
* Being sexual for partner, not self.
* Believing other can anticipate your needs.
* Expecting others to fill your needs automatically.
* Falling apart so someone will take care of you.
* Falling in love with a new acquaintance.
* Falling in love with anyone who reaches out.
* Food abuse.
* Giving as much as you can give for the sake of giving.
* Going against personal values or rights to please others.
* Letting others define you.
* Letting others describe your reality.
* Letting others direct your life.
* Not noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries.
* Not noticing or caring when someone invades your boundaries.
* Self abuse.
* Sexual and physical abuse.
* Taking as much as you can get for the sake of getting.
* Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting.
* Telling all.
* Touching a person without asking.
================================================
Personal Boundaries
"Setting boundaries is not a more sophisticated way of manipulation - although some people will say they are setting boundaries, when in fact they are attempting to manipulate. The difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulating is: when we set a boundary we let go of the outcome.
So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:
When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . . . .
The fourth part of this formula is setting the boundary. I will get to that in a moment. The first three parts of the formula are a very important part of taking responsibility for our self - an important step in learning to define ourselves as separate in a healthy way.
There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what we will do to defend that boundary.
If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.
If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
freyapax came up with some interesting discussion questions that I'd actually love to see or hear discussed 'live' perhaps at something like a Poly 101 or a meeting at the Human Potential Center.Where things seem to get murky for me is in these two words: "respect" and "boundaries"
Respect seems to be a word that gets used a lot and seems to have a lot of definitions or assumptions built-in by others that seem odd to me.
The wierdest one I can think of is the street "respect" in which you can shoot someone in the face if they "disrespect" you ... which all seems to be totally subjective, having to do with body language, eye contact, articles of clothing worn & perhaps tone of voice or words used in addressing the 'disrespected' party.
There is also the Mafia sort of "respect" which is I think where the ghetto kids got their idea from. This type of 'respect' seems to have more to do with fear and obedience and hierarchy than humans relating to one another as equals.
While I think of this as a criminal phenomenon, I begin to suspect that some people I know actually adhere more to this (to me) very odd definition of 'respect' than to any others I can come up with.
Wikipedia does a good job of coming closer to what I see as "respect".
Basically good faith that the other person is behaving and speaking authentically as themselves. I can agree or disagree with the behavior, opinions, level of knowledge or expertise claimed by that person, but still respect them.
Respect is not, IMHO, a matter of nodding and smiling approvingly at whatever happens. It's not a matter of unwavering loyalty and agreement. it's a matter of saying "You're an adult, you can do and say and think whatever you like. That doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with you."
When behavior and words often don't match, I begin to lose respect. [edit] And maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should see respect more as a "namaste"...you are a human being with feelings, thoughts, and desires, same as me. You are a face of the Divine, same as me. HM!]
Boundaries are a lot stickier. I am pretty sure I still have an imperfect understanding, mostly brought about by failing to identify my emotional state or true desire at any given time, or being unable to relate external events & behavior of others to my own thoughts and feelings.
I am not so good at recognizing or enforcing my own boundaries. But, here is my understanding, flawed as it may be:
Boundaries are not about telling someone "You can't do that"...boundaries are about saying "I don't want to be here if you're doing that." "I won't help you do that." "I won't do that for you." and the like.
Boundaries are something still pretty new to me. I think I am pretty good at respecting others' boundaries, especially when they are clearly stated "I" messages. (and, FWIW, I don't think that putting up with behavior you don't like and then writing about it in LJ after the fact & saying "That's my boundary" is really the same thing as actually stating a boundary)
And, yes, you can lose friends and loved ones by stating & enforcing boundaries.
For example: "I would like you to follow thru on your commitments to me," was a boundary I recently expressed to someone. She would show up regularly for some ongoing thing we had decided to do together and then eventually quit showing up because she found something else to do instead. I felt like that person didn't like me because she decided not to do girls nights anymore. She didn't come to my house when I invited folks over. I needed more time with her in order for me to feel like we were friends, that she valued our friendship.--[mostly] "I" statements. All valid feelings.
The response? None. No words, no change in behavior, no indication that my feelings or wants are valid, nothing.
{edit: Ok, let me be fair. There was actually a response. Just not one I could work with.
1) how "interesting" it was to see others expectations. [like I was a creature in a petri dish. Or some grubby peasant holding up a bowl to her carriage as it passed by my hovel. How fucking condescending.]
2) "Thank you for sharing. I don't see it that way." and nothing further.
I can't build a respectful relationship based on that sort of non-response, sorry. You think you're better than me and that I'm wrong. Whereas your POV is entirely correct, valid and perfect. You are perfect, I am garbage. I get it. OK. Bye.}
Therefore, I cut ties.
It's very possible I did not state my needs and feelings clearly enough. It's very possible I did not voice my boundaries until I was already too upset to talk reasonably with them. It's also likely that I did not deliver the boundary with a part 4 (see below) I did not say:
If you--" "I will---" or "If you continue this behavior"
To me, that still feels like emotional blackmail: "give me what I want or I quit." but intellectually I do understand it. Just not so good at putting into practice yet. And needing to work harder on 'all or nothing' thinking.
==============================================
here are some signs of unhealthy boundaries:
We suggest going down this list twice. First thinking of yourself, and then as it may apply to the person in your life. . . .
Signs of Unhealthy Boundaries
* Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don’t want.
* Acting on first sexual impulse.
* Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you.
* Being overwhelmed by a person - preoccupied.
* Being sexual for partner, not self.
* Believing other can anticipate your needs.
* Expecting others to fill your needs automatically.
* Falling apart so someone will take care of you.
* Falling in love with a new acquaintance.
* Falling in love with anyone who reaches out.
* Food abuse.
* Giving as much as you can give for the sake of giving.
* Going against personal values or rights to please others.
* Letting others define you.
* Letting others describe your reality.
* Letting others direct your life.
* Not noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries.
* Not noticing or caring when someone invades your boundaries.
* Self abuse.
* Sexual and physical abuse.
* Taking as much as you can get for the sake of getting.
* Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting.
* Telling all.
* Touching a person without asking.
================================================
Personal Boundaries
"Setting boundaries is not a more sophisticated way of manipulation - although some people will say they are setting boundaries, when in fact they are attempting to manipulate. The difference between setting a boundary in a healthy way and manipulating is: when we set a boundary we let go of the outcome.
So, it is very important for us to learn to communicate about how another person's behavior is affecting us - without making blaming "you" type of statements. There is a simple formula to help us do this. It is:
When you . . . . .
I feel . . . . .
I want . . . .
The fourth part of this formula is setting the boundary. I will get to that in a moment. The first three parts of the formula are a very important part of taking responsibility for our self - an important step in learning to define ourselves as separate in a healthy way.
There are basically three parts to a boundary. The first two are setting the boundary - the third is what we will do to defend that boundary.
If you - a description of the behavior we find unacceptable (again being as descriptive as possible.)
I will - a description of what action you will take to protect and take care of your self in the event the other person violates the boundary.
If you continue this behavior - a description of what steps you will take to protect the boundary that you have set.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-01-24 07:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-24 07:41 pm (UTC)I just found myself thinking and posting so much on it in your LJ, I decided it'd be better to do a post here instead of hijacking yours :P
INteresting comment!!! Thank you!
Date: 2008-01-25 12:25 am (UTC)I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone who likes BDSM is also crazy or had an abusive adult in their lives when they were kids, but it does seem like a big number when comparing to the average population.
I don't know much about 24/7 stuff. But it seems like a lot of boundaries would be negotiated in advance of starting the relationship, same as in advance of doing a 'scene' with someone at a party. The people involved have established some trust, and from there they make a general outline of what they'd like to have happen, what they might like, what they will or won't do, etc. And, as most scenes have 'safe words', most 24/7 relationships probably (I would think!) have a set time of day or day of the week in which the people can drop their roles and negotiate or clarify or whatever.
And, unless a relationship is just horribly unhealthy and abusive, I'd think that either party would be free to leave if they didn't feel safe anymore.
Like I said, I am not a 24/7 kinkster. My 'play' boundaries would be different from my 'real life' ones, I'd think.
I've heard that swingers parties are a really great way of learning clear communication and boundary-setting. I thought that was interesting, but I've never gone to one to see how that works.
But that's all a really grey area. YKIOK covers my view towards BDSM practices, kink, poly, swinging, etc. and I think I'd like it to cover my view of other human relationships as well. I don't like the way C's husband talks to her or treats her, but if C doesn't mind, why should I?
no subject
Date: 2008-01-24 10:56 pm (UTC)Over here in Japanland, people give respect to others because of their position in life--regardless of whether or not the individual in question is worthy of their respect. Men automatically merit more respect than women. Women who are wives and mothers merit more respect than single women. Different culture, different rules.
In the West, I think we've fallen into the trap of believing that the more money you have, the more respect you deserve, regardless of whether you're actually worthy of the respect of others. Respect is so tied in to a culture's ethics--which change--that it's hard to put a finger on it.
However, I like to think not so much about respect as respectability. A respectable person, in my mind, is one who strives to live in honesty and trust with his fellow human beings. A respectable person makes the best possible choices that he or she can with an eye not only to their own comfort and wellbeing but to the comfort and wellbeing of others around them. A respectable person is willing to work for their own betterment and the betterment of others, even if that means sacrificing more selfish desires in the present for a long-term reward. A respectable person recognizes that spirituality and faith are personal roads and that all the other roads that people travel are just as valid and fulfilling as her own.
These are MY measures of respectability. Yours may be different, but the key is that if you set a measure, you must be able to meet it yourself.
Interesting post. Thanks for giving me some things to think about.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-25 12:28 am (UTC)if you set a measure, you must be able to meet it yourself.
Very well said, and I think I agree.
Another tangentially related thought
Date: 2008-02-28 07:50 pm (UTC)http://usualerror.com/blog/?p=9
"Many people place a high value on honesty. Today I want to talk about the value of predictability.
Imagine two people, Lying Lester and Honest Hal. Ask Lying Lester whether he likes pistachio ice cream and he may very well lie to you, saying “Yes, I like it very much.” Ask Honest Hal and he’ll also say “Yes, I like pistachio ice cream”, but then once you go out to the store and buy some from him, he’ll take a bite and then say “Sorry, I guess I was wrong, I don’t really like it after all.”
Honesty is great. Honesty is very important. Intent matters a lot. But predictability also matters a lot. Because what do we do with an honest answer? We act on it. We make conclusions based on it, we take it into consideration when making our plans. And if the answer we get is incorrect, our plans end up falling apart regardless of the original intent of the speaker."
Re: Another tangentially related thought
Date: 2008-02-28 08:09 pm (UTC)I'm gonna have to go with "deeds not words" here...
I know people who say they mean well, and back up their statement of intent/motivation with quotes from eminently Good people such as The Buddha, The Dalai Lama, Pema Chodron, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, etc.
But then their behavior continues to appear dysfunctional, thoughtless, selfish, arrogant, and just basically narcissistic.
At some point, I have to go with the behavior as being a more authentic representation of the person's intent than the words they use to describe their internal processes, motivations, or behavior.
I have given up on people who said all the 'right' things and were 'working very hard' on themselves, because how many quotes from good people can I listen to/read while continuing to allow myself be treated badly?
Re: Another tangentially related thought
Date: 2008-03-24 09:59 pm (UTC)"Preaching sugar while practicing poison,"
more re: Boundaries
Date: 2008-03-24 09:54 pm (UTC)Ultimatums or threats are a means of *control* and are typically given when the behavior in question hasn’t occurred yet. The person giving the ultimatum or issuing the threat is very invested in the outcome of the situation and in controlling the other person’s behavior.
Consequences are a means of *protection* . Consequences are set forth when the behavior in question has already happened. The victim is attempting to protect themselves from the hurtful behavior recurring again. (S)he lets go of the outcome because (s)he isn’t interested in control, only in self-protection. The primary objective is only self-protection, NOT controlling the other person.