evile | 1400house stuff

May 8, 2003

so I sent Sweetie that website,and he was all like "Oh, we
don't have a problem" and then I said "I don't know
how to ask you for help with the house without you
getting mad at me." and then he goes "wtf. I thought I
was cleaning around the house?" [WHEN? like his help
unloading the last 2-3 dishes when I get home & start
unloading the dishwasher? or a couple weeks ago when
he mowed the front yard but hasn't bothered with the
back yet?]...Of course, I didn't say that. I said "I'm
sorry, I guess I don't appreciate what you do enough"
and then he goes "I have to get off this thing {icq}
before my interview mood gets ruined" (he has a phone
interview at 2)

So now you see, of course, it will be ALL MY FAULT
when/if he doesn't get the in-person interview and/or
the job. Fucking passive agressive bullshite. I could
cheerfully bash his head in.

I can't win this one. I'm just going to have to either
clean the house myself or just live with the filth, or
just make a point of cleaning my own stuff and leaving
his alone (which I already mostly do).

And I guess I should go back to taking the bus to/from
work instead of him driving me & picking me up.
Because it seems hypocritical somehow, or by accepting
that 'help' I seem to be giving up some rights or
something...

This shit just crops up every now and again.
Eventually I'll stuff it right back down the denial
rabbithole and everything will be OK again.
======================
she sent this to me: re the website,last email I sent:

Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: gotta be happy medium...

It's not funny at all. It's not hilarious. Whoever said that is
very insensitive. It makes me shiver.

*hug*

When I was living with my mom & brother it was totally like that -
every surface covered with junk, stuff not getting clean, etc. On
some level, I could kind of see McBitchface's point about keeping
things in a better state. But she didn't have to be such a total
festering choad about it. Anyway.

Now that I am on my own - I am no neatfreak by any means... but I
keep things clean & relatively tidy. It *is* easier when you can
just get up and do it without other people & their crap getting in
the way.

The thing is, on some level, Sweetie has got to recognize that things are
out of hand. He is just willing to endure it, while you are not. I
say this because my brother, whose bedroom was a sight to behold,
whose crap took up permanent residence in the living room, knew that
it was out of hand. He knew (and said as much) that it was a
problem, but he just endured it.

Same with me and all my crap on the dining room table.

Sweetie knows it is "a problem," at least to the extent that it is one
for you. When he says, "honestly, I don't think it is a problem," he
means that he knows the mess is there, but it isn't at a level that
bothers him. In other words, it's not an issue for him, so why is it
an issue for you?

Explaining why it bothers you is good, but will only get you so far.
It keeps the issue on a "my view vs. your view" level, which is just
not helpful. The trick is not so much to make him see the problem
the way you see it, but to arrive at some agreement as to what you
can both live with. That will be tough, because you're both coming
at this from different ways. You are: how much mess and for how
long? For Sweetie, it is: how much effort to I have to make? or How can
this be done with a minimum of effort?

That is a giant gap.

As for what to do? When I went on "clean the living room" benders, I
would say, look - anything you don't want chucked, take to your
room. I will be in here at noon and chucking everything that's
left." First time, he ignored it, and some of his bills got chucked,
and he had late fees. He was hugely pissed off at me, which I could
understand.... but each time after that, he sorted through his crap.

The downside, obviously, is that you still have to nag & be the bad
guy and get the red ass when something important get tossed. 'I
warned you' is not well-received in response.

And, in the couple sitch, I don't know that this would work as well.
Maybe containment is your answer. There is your space, Sweetie's space,
and shared space. Maybe, as long as no one person's crap interferes
with the shared space? Is that something he could actually keep to?

Maybe therapy? It sounds so dramatic, but it is often little things
accumulating, patterns repeating, and stuff that strains
relationships (and ultimately makes big messes), etc. And it sounds
to me like you are really stressed about the mess and y'all's
differing levels of tolerating it. If you're worried about how to
approach the mess and the tolerance gap, maybe someone who is totally
objective can get you guys closer to resolving it.

Like your subject suggests - it doesn't have to be an operating room,
but it also doesn't have to be a disaster area, either. This has
been an issue of some long standing, and I think you've had that
moment of clarity that prompts you to take action. You're in pain.
Follow through on it.

*hug* Best of luck, my love. Let me know what happens.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

evile

May 8, 2003

Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Top of Form 1 &
Subject: Re: what total crap

Girl - I love you. If you are unhappy and in pain (you are, or that
website wouldn't have hit you that hard) you can't sink back in to
denial. That is what Sweetie is doing - living in a state of denial that
allows him to tolerate the crap.

Sure, this issue crops up periodically and then goes away. That's
just it - this is a pattern, it distresses you specifically and
strains the relationship, so you all have to break out of it.
I am sorry about the interview thing - the fact is, you can't be held
responsible for how he functions in the interview. He's gotta put
whatever the personal crap is aside and step up to the plate. I
really hope he doesn't tank it and get mad at you. But if he does...
I think that is an indication of how insidious this mess problem is.
It is volatile, it impacts stuff that is seemingly completely
unrelated.

But, everything in our lives is linked to everything else. This mess
problem isn't just about having people over, keeping YOUR PROPERTY in
a sanitary state, maintaining its value, etc. It drags down your
quality of life as a whole. You are forced to bring it out in the
open, get shot down, Sweetie gets preoccupied an tanks an interview - the
mess being the root issue - not merely because you brought it up and
he didn't feel like talking about it.
==================
J-Law to me:
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:02:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: what total crap

P.S.
ICQ is probably not your best venue for discussing something of this
magnitude (and it is a big deal, I think). Face time is ideal, if,
obviously, scary. I don't want to sound all e.-hysterical, but I
meant what I said about involving an objective professional to help
you reach an agreement.

Is "the mess," as a physical manifestation worth breaking up over? Of
course not.

But what makes it complicated is that this isn't about just being
messy. It is about y'all's ability to negotiate. Sweetie is not
negotiating. You want to negotiate, but you're scared, resigned,
maybe you don't think you're equipped to do it.

You're both great people, and you love each other. You have
everything you need to work through this. You just have to start
doing the work, and I hope that Sweetie works with you.

=========
me to J-Law:
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:11:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: what total crap

He shuts down whether I try to talk about this in RL
or online. Back in the beginning, I wrote him notes
after verbal attempts failed. He never read them (or
if he did, he never responded). He is just really not
interested in cleaning the house, he doesn't care if I
am, he doesn't care that a messy house and his lack of
interest come across to me as being disrespectful and
dismissive of my feelings. He just isn't interested.

I even try and meet him halfway on stuff: "If you'll
vacuum, I'll run the carpet shampooer." And he never
vacuums. He may say "OK" but then he never does it.
The message seems very clear to me, if I want it done
I will have to do it myself. Period.

From:

evile

May 8, 2003
waht started this alL: (reposting, apparently the 1st never 'took')

Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Top of Form 1 &

Subject: gotta be happy medium... Bottom of Form 1

Someone pointed out this website as 'funny' and
'hilarious' and such...but it was like a big slap in
the face, a GIANT wake up call, for me.

<http://www.network54.com/realm/squalor_survivors/index.html>

I forwarded it to Sweetie, he says he honestly doesn't
think we have a problem...

Dishes haven't been done in days. Wine glasses we used
at Easter that need to be hand-washed are still
sitting by the sink.

Stuff Sweetie stacked up in the LR and then ignored got
moved in to the bedroom for Decemberween and he hasn't
done a thing with it since. There is a dresser we
don't use at all because it's behind a couple of
printers, the lazy boy, some other computer pieces,
and a filing cabinet.

There is one corner of the dining room table that is
clear--I sit there and eat. The rest of it is covered
in Sweetie's laptop, where he sits all day, various mail &
bills, all Sweetie's, and various little car repair bits
(nuts & bolts, hose clamps, small tools).

My work room has piles of bills, papers, catalogs &
magazines that need to be filed, fabric stacked up,
camping stuff (chairs, coolers) out in the middle,
renfaire garb piled here and there...

I can't walk through the garage because of all the car
parts & stuff all over. I can't open the storage
cabinets in the garage because of the car parts and
stuff blocking them.

but, no, "honestly, I don't think we have a problem".

And goddamnit, he's not working, so why is it that *I*
am coming home and cooking dinner in the evenings, and
when the dishes get done, it's ME doing them. When the
floor gets vacuumed, it's ME doing that. ETc.

Sorry...nothing you can do, nothing that can be done
aside from ME cleaning, because Sweetie dosn't have a
problem with it. Just blowing off steam.

*sigh*

I really wish I lived on my own sometimes. Yeah, I was
a slob, too, and my stuff got out of hand, but when I
decided to clean, I didn't have to ask anyone "Is this
trash? Can I toss it?"...I just DID it.

From:

evile

May 8, 2003

evile: http://www.network54.com/Realm/Squalor_Survivors/index.html
Mack: Enh. We're only in the first degree, if that.
evile: Yah, but why not nip it in the bud?
Mack: Honestly, I don't really think there's any problem.
evile: Okeydoke.
Mack: Ooooo. Pictures.
Mack: Green lizard on the pit!
evile: this is more "james and Joanna" than us...but I can see bits
of 2nd degree creeping in: my dresser, dining room table, 1/2 the
bedroom full of stuff keeping us fromusing the big dresser, etc.
evile: Is the cool ridgey-lizard?
Mack: No, the regular bright green
Mack: Maybe I should just give the big dresser to goodwill or sell it.
evile: his color was normal, I even watched him change from brown to
green. he just had a ridge on his back
Mack: Nah. This one's smoooooth
evile: I liked the ridgey lizard--he hopped on my hand.
Mack: At least there was something cute in all the silliness:
http://www.network54.com/Realm/Squalor_Survivors/images/generalhedgeho
g.gif
evile: yeah, his poop was probably all over their LR. Some clutter
fighter.
evile: I don't know how to ask you for help with the house without
making you mad at me. I don't like doing it all myself, or just
ignoring it & letting things get messy, but those seem to be safest
bets.
Mack: wtf? Have I not been cleaning? I thought I had.
evile: I'm sorry. I guess I'm not grateful enough for what you *do*.
Mack: What time do you get out today?
evile: 4:37
Mack: Okay. See you then. I gotta get off this thing bedfore my
phone interview mood gets spoiled.
===========
me to J-Law:
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 11:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: gotta be happy medium...

Someone pointed out this website as 'funny' and
'hilarious' and such...but it was like a big slap in
the face, a GIANT wake up call, for me.

http://www.network54.com/Realm/Squalor_Survivors/index.html

I forwarded it to Sweetie, he says he honestly doesn't
think we have a problem...

Dishes haven't been done in days. Wine glasses we used
at Easter that need to be hand-washed are still
sitting by the sink.

Stuff Sweetie stacked up in the LR and then ignored got
moved in to the bedroom for Decemberween and he hasn't
done a thing with it since. There is a dresser we
don't use at all because it's behind a couple of
printers, the lazy boy, some other computer pieces,
and a filing cabinet.

There is one corner of the dining room table that is
clear--I sit there and eat. The rest of it is covered
in Sweetie's laptop, where he sits all day, various mail &
bills, all Sweetie's, and various little car repair bits
(nuts & bolts, hose clamps, small tools).

My work room has piles of bills, papers, catalogs &
magazines that need to be filed, fabric stacked up,
camping stuff (chairs, coolers) out in the middle,
renfaire garb piled here and there...

I can't walk through the garage because of all the car
parts & stuff all over. I can't open the storage
cabinets in the garage because of the car parts and
stuff blocking them.

but, no, "honestly, I don't think we have a problem".

And goddamnit, he's not working, so why is it that *I*
am coming home and cooking dinner in the evenings, and
when the dishes get done, it's ME doing them. When the
floor gets vacuumed, it's ME doing that. ETc.

Sorry...nothing you can do, nothing that can be done
aside from ME cleaning, because Sweetie dosn't have a
problem with it. Just blowing off steam.

*sigh*

I really wish I lived on my own sometimes. Yeah, I was
a slob, too, and my stuff got out of hand, but when I
decided to clean, I didn't have to ask anyone "Is this
trash? Can I toss it?"...I just DID it.